Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton From: cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gary Stollman Message-ID: <1991Nov13.041546.3977@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 13 Nov 91 04:15:46 GMT Distribution: alt Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 12 I'm having a hard time trying to decide whether Gary Stollman is simply a slightly bent person, or whether his posting is really strong satire. It seems to me that he writes just a little too much like a stereotypical "guy who's been inhaling things he shouldn't be" to be sincere. I didn't know whether to laugh or worry while reading his post! Something tells me that we're all being had just a little here... -- Casey Barton (Mr.) cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (519)725-6861 "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide. Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 04:36:21 GMT Organization: Kiboville Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3001 alt.paranormal:3639 . HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? -- -- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 04:22:05 GMT References: <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> <4663@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> <1991Nov10.213734.7399@anasaz> Distribution: alt.alien.visitors Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1991Nov10.213734.7399@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes: >Yes but I've heard about these "blobs" before so I would sure appreciate a >follow up. I'd like to know if there are any reports of cattle >mutilations in the immediate area at about the same time, whether there >is any unusual military interest in the organisim and, most importantly, >any allegations of human multilations or human disappearances in that >area around that time. There have been "blobs" found before? And they might be related to mutilations? That's incredible, I've never heard anything like it. Could you tell us more about it? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <91317.003927DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 13 Nov 91 08:39:27 GMT References: Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 6 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3003 alt.paranormal:3643 kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) says: > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? I guess I ought to cash in my IRA. Path: ns-mx!uunet!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!uflorida!math.ufl.edu!oak.circa.ufl.edu!KEITH From: keith@oak.circa.ufl.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov13.053937.8825@math.ufl.edu> Date: 13 Nov 91 05:39:08 GMT References: <1991Nov5.172750.16622@pacdata.uucp> <1991Nov8.063537.1301@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov12.015046.15136@bilver.uucp>,<1991Nov12.102600.2060@arizona.edu> Sender: news@math.ufl.edu Reply-To: KEITH%oak.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu Distribution: world,local Organization: University of Florida CIRCA VAX Cluster Lines: 6 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3004 talk.religion.newage:7678 alt.slack:1690 no, there ARE good E.T.'s, and they're in the same piece o' shit boat as we humans are, so hell lot of help they'll be anyway. I've got a goddamned trespassers will by nuked sign on my planet, and I don't want any damn nice-hi-we're-here-to spread-peace and universal love space brother aliens snooping around my house. Give me mean bastards with guns a-shootin' so I can shoot back. I cook goddamned nice ETs and eat them for lunch! Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Tornado Message-ID: <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: BNR Europe, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 28 Dateline: Nov13 1991 On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. Turning on the television for the morning news I expected to see film of what happened but there wasn't even a sniff of the article from the radio!! Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction of property close by? I'm baffled! -- "On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!" || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov13.122103.12799@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 13 Nov 91 12:21:03 GMT References: Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3006 alt.paranormal:3645 In article kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > > > -- >-- ITS A MONDAY!! So it must be a joke, right?????? -- "On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!" || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill From: bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: <10301@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Date: 13 Nov 91 12:53:22 GMT References: <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> Sender: news@uofs.uofs.edu Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: |> |> About "a month ago", the police in St. Louis, Missouri, found a box |> alongside the road "near Highway 100 and Deer Creek Road in West County". |> Inside the box was a glass jar full of vinegar, and in the vinegar was the |> "blob". It consists of four parts, of which one is a tentacle. It has no |> bones or hair. "2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather. It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated." -- Bill Gunshannon | If this statement wasn't here, bill@platypus.uofs.edu | This space would be left intentionally blank bill@tuatara.uofs.edu | #include Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: An UFO over Mexico city. Message-ID: <1991Nov12.201639.14583@anasaz> Date: 12 Nov 91 20:16:39 GMT References: <1991Nov9.043847.12321@bilver.uucp> <91313.163841SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 29 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <91313.163841SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: ]>> ]>>So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in ]>>Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found ]>>in Utah? Inquiring minds want to know... ]> ]>What mysterious organism in Texas? Do you mean the mysterious organism in ]>St. Louis, Missouri, or is there another one? ] I think the poster was being sarcastic in tying the organism to the Utah machine. I am very, very interested in hearing more about the St. Louis case because I have no information about that one. I especially would appreciate information about (a) reported cattle mutilations nearby, (b) reported human mutilations or disappearences at the same time, and (c) the level of military interest in the organism itself. If this group is still open to serious research, I would appreciate any information anyone might have on the above. >-- > * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now > Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? > 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1732 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> Date: 12 Nov 91 20:21:22 GMT References: <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 26 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> dusty@abode.ttank.com (Dusty Garza) writes: ]>> ]>> ]>>So, has ANYONE haerd anything about the mysterious organism that was found ]>>in Texas or New Mexico??? ]> ]>IF you're talking about the one found in St. Louis, Missouri, I know what ]>you're talking about (but not much else.) ]> ... stuff deleted ... ]> ]>I saw an ABC report on it one time, in what would normally be the ]>EVERYWHERE!". I haven't seen it here, or on CIS, or on ParaNet, so where ]>are all these people talking about it? (I have access to the Fido UFO ]>echo, but I don't have the money or the time to read it. If there are ]>messages about it there, could someone please post them here?) > If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it! I suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the end of their noon program too closely. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1732 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar From: gpivar@tympani.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov13.123756.2965@linus.mitre.org> Date: 13 Nov 91 12:37:56 GMT References: Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service) Reply-To: gpivar@mitre.org Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3010 alt.paranormal:3646 Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: |> .. |> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S |> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? |> |> July 13th? July13th? Damn it! I was looking forward to my next birthday, and now you tell me the worlds going to snuff it a week before I get it. No, I had'nt heard anything about any asteroids hitting earth until 2013. -- Greg -- Be still, be silent...the rest is easy. -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 13 Nov 91 13:57:03 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 51 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3011 alt.paranormal:3647 In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes... >.. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > > > -- >-- ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!! People get a life!!!!!! Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!! There is no astoroid (known) heading for Earth! There are NO astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system. There are NO clones of Gary Stollman 8^) and we need to get on with our lives and quit worrying about whether scientists are right or wrong or if spiritual beings live on Venus. All of the reports like these come from Tabloids and those who claim to be in contact with whatever. This stuff should not only be taken with a grain of salt but an entire salt lick. FYI I just read an article about astronomers who have just completed a survey of part of the sky looking for comets in a theorized shell near the orbit of Neptune. This shell is called the Kuniper Shell/Cloud (sort of like the theorized Ort Cloud) and nothing was discovered. It is very hard to detect objects at anydistance due to low albedos and "not a lot of light to reflect". If there had been any discoverys of Astroids/Comets that were heading in for the kill or even suspected of a near miss then the many scientific journals would have been filled with talk of these. There has been nothing absolutely nothing. I know I am going to catch alot of flak over this but I just am real tired of the doom and gloomers who see boogie men and astoroids around every corner and "Grays" lurking in the dark corners with fork and knife ready to carve me up for supper. This is a VERY paranoid file. Steve "Beware the Jub Jub Bird" Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!cmuvm!343qazu From: 343QAZU@CMUVM.BITNET (Russell E. Cox III) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Info about Prescott area, Az. Message-ID: <91316.150457343QAZU@CMUVM.BITNET> Date: 12 Nov 91 20:04:57 GMT Organization: Central Michigan University Lines: 9 I was a student at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ located in Prescott, Az three years ago. We had a lecture about alien activity out side the town in the desert. NASA spoke and stated that nothing was goining on. But then this old man spoke, he lives in the desert and stated he sees UFO's all the time and if anyone wanted to come out they could see them to. He also stated that aliens had put something in his lower calf. We all thought the old man was "way out their" but after a few years of thinking I often wonder if this man is telling the truth? The Waterbearer of Hope - Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov13.161605.6841@convex.com> Date: 13 Nov 91 16:16:05 GMT References: <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: >In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes... >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? ... > ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!! People get a life!!!!!! Wake up and > smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!! > > There is no astoroid (known) heading for Earth! There are NO > astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system. There are NO ... I think you just made kibo's day. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: the asteroid Message-ID: <1991Nov13.174846.21206@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 13 Nov 91 18:25:47 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 18 In article <1991Nov11.214129.5882@pacdata.uucp>, johnr@pacdata.com () writes... > >About a week ago I posted, and asked for more information concerning >the story about the dracos. One of my questions concerned the >asteroid that the dracos are supposedly using in their trip to >earth. > >I received the following response via E-mail from an Aussie. I don't believe this has anything to do with the Dracos at all. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!kannel!Janne.Anttila From: Janne.Anttila@lut.fi (Janne Anttila) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 19:25:38 GMT References: <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> Sender: janttila@lut.fi (Janne Anttila) Organization: The Student Union of Lappeenranta U of Tech, Finland Lines: 13 In-Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk's message of 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT Disclaimer: Homer panee: Bart!, min{ panen: Yo! >>>>> On 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT, fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) said: >> Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction >> of property close by? Eh, how about lightnings? -- _________________________________________________ Janne Anttila /> ...mutta Saturnuksesta l{hestyy taivaanlaiva. /> /> Veljet, meid{n on syyt{ olla varuillamme, /> [{ni ylh{{lt{ /> sill{ Saturnuksen miehet eiv{t tunne armoa. /> _________________________________________________________________/> Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom From: tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic" Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 22:53:09 GMT References: <1991Nov10.180723.11059@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> <198679@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <198816@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Sender: usenet@webo.dg.com (Usenet Administration) Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp. Lines: 140 In-Reply-To: seawasp@pitt.edu's message of 13 Nov 91 01:02:26 GMT >>>>> On 13 Nov 91 01:02:26 GMT, seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) said: Ryk> In article tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes: >detected (ie light) actually exist. Thus, 150 years ago, most of the >EM spectrum, using your own terms, would be religated to guess, >opinion, or unreason. Such would, and should, under such Ryk> BUZZ! The difference, my good man, is that any opinion on such Ryk> matters could be TESTED. If you were to postulate, 150 years ago, the Ryk> existence of such things, you could then have defined a set of conditions Ryk> which would demonstrate the existence of the things that you were Ryk> theorizing. And I've seen the same done for psi, etc. Tests have been conducted that show that psi does work. The best doc on this that I've seen (in one place), is Nova's "The Case for ESP". Very good program, with experimental results on remote viewing, finding shipwrecks, and a very impressive display of telekinesis. Still, High Priests of Science (and it IS a religion, you know) will poo poo anything that's demonstrated since it doesn't fit their world view. >grammar by design). Thank goodness Tesla, Maxwell, Marconi, etc, >didn't think this way. They were open to possibilities. That's what Ryk> All three of the above, and other scientists who discovered Ryk> new things, did so by building on the known and noticing things that Ryk> were detectable in the real world. Each one came up with theoretical Ryk> models of the world which described the phenomena they were trying to Ryk> explain, and then they proceeded to TEST these phenomena. They would Ryk> not have tried to advance as science anything which they could not Ryk> either test or prove logically (Einstein's relativity was at first only Ryk> demonstrable in mathematical terms; but even here you have a form Ryk> of concreteness in that everyone can agree on what mathematics mean Ryk> and that they mean the same thing to all mathematicians). Bullshit Ryk! Einstein stated that he "felt" relativity. His theories turned the "real world" on its head. Discoveries are often made by incrementally building on the known. SOME, however, come forth from a burst of creativity and intuitive inspiration. You arguments would seemingly deny intuition, which is information flow outside of the rational mind and logic. I also KNOW it works, because I design and debug intuitively. I've wracked my brain on a bug for a week (I tend to be very logical myself as a default approach). ONLY after I gave up on logic and INVOKED intuition in these situations did the solution present itself, always within 1/2 or so, and usually when my rational mind as occupied with other tasks. Einstein set out to prove what he first perceived with math, not the other way around! BTW, I try to use my intuition much earlier in my endeavors these days. >more power to them (you,I). Your statements would limit us to science >that we already know, and close the door to investigation of that >which is possible but as yet, still unproven. Unfortunately, your >closed minded approach to phenomena and the physical universe in >general is a shared malaise. I feel that it hinders science. Too >bad. Ryk> This is a common misconception of the scientific method. Science Ryk> is open to ANYTHING new; but for it to enter the realm of science it That's a lie! Science is not open to anything that would shake its current conceptual framework. When such is proposed, you see struting and positioning reminiscent of any bunch of religious fanatics. As I posted to Scott the Great, check out the Cold Fusion debacle. Turns out that researchers are STILL getting bursts of Neutrons, Tritium, and radiation, but not in expected quantities for the amount of heat being produced. This led many "scientists" to exclaim that it was all bullshit, but its the most active topic (STILL) in sci.physics.fusion. Politics and fanaticsm are human traits. Scientists are human, so you see these same traits in their endeavors. The scientist is religious about his science and what he believes just as the Christian or Moslem is about their beliefs. Science is NOT some holy grail to all understanding. Its a very useful tool, but NOT an end unto itself. Your postings indicate to me that you believe in science as the only useful method for discovery. THIS is what I take exception to. Ryk> must be stated in a way that is open for testing. If not now, then in Ryk> a forseeable future, and it must not conflict with known science, nor Ryk> require a too-drastic revision of the known UNLESS evidence can be Ryk> shown requiring that drastic revision (Galileo's famous dropped-object Ryk> experiment is an example of that; Einstein's Theory of Relativity is Ryk> another). Ryk> In this case the talk is dealing with mystic/religious subjects Ryk> that have been around since the dawn of history, and none of them yet Ryk> have a shred of evidence for them (UNLIKE all the scientific advances Ryk> you name above) and most of them being illogical or just plain silly. Check out that Nova I mentioned. This is one source of good evidence. I personally don't believe reality to be logical. Our brains and egos will interpret data according to their own set of filters, and these are what we BELIEVE reality to be. If you are logically based, you'll filter what you perceive with the filter of logic. This leads to branding anything that your logic can't explain to silliness or worse yet, illogic! The flaw in this kind of thinking is that all logic must be based on a set of axioms. If you use an incomplete set of axioms, there will be errors in your logic. I do NOT believe that 20th century science is working from a complete set of axioms. If it were, all would be discovered, and there would be no new science, just technology! As such, such logic is flawed due to its incomplete (and probobly incorrect due to lack of information) basis upon which it is built. This is not to say that such is useless. It clearly is useful, but only by the accuracy of its approximation to reality. NOW, to say that such exists because it is logical, and such does not because it is illogical, assumes perfect logic, which is based on axioms. Since, by definition, science is still in the job of discovery, there are still axioms yet to be discovered. As such, logic is still not working with a complete deck. You cannot say, on the basis of logic, that anything does not exist. With a complete set of axioms, I feel that logic could probably explain everything, but I feel that we are FAR from having a complete set of axioms upon which we can absolutely conclude anything about reality. To state that anything does not exist is poor logic. Now, I am sure that there are many things being bantered about that do, in fact, either not exist, or if they do, are still not "useful" to man's current endeavors. It's easy to prove gross, physical phenomena exists. Its difficult to prove that something in the realm of thought or emotion exists, but we experience these subjectively. It may be that human brains/minds are better detectors of thought (ie channeling, intuitive discovery, psi, etc) than instrumentation we can (today) build. To say that such does not exist is to 1) refute thousands of such recorded occurences that persist over the entire history of mankind, and 2) assumes, once again, that logic is God like in its capabilities to ascertain what is and is not. I've already shown why logic can't be used to definitively say such. To CLING to logic as you (and others like you) do, is a very limited religion. You would be better served to logically classify phenomena into the categories of that which is proven, that which is disproved, and that which is, as yet, unprovable. To state that items in this last category do not exist, are silly, are poor logic, or what have you, are simply a replay of religious fanaticsm. Keep an open mind on what might be. You'll live in a much larger world, and a world that is more congruous with the "real world". Good luck to you on your philosophic evolution...Tom Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom From: tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part1 Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 23:06:10 GMT References: <1991Nov13.023224.4956@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Sender: usenet@webo.dg.com (Usenet Administration) Distribution: usa Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp. Lines: 24 In-Reply-To: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com's message of 13 Nov 91 02:32:24 GMT >>>>> On 13 Nov 91 02:32:24 GMT, jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) said: Kathy> Ryk Spoor: I said nothing about being "in love". I said Kathy> when one IS the RADIATION of LOVE. Read the sentence again, Kathy> don't change it. Kathy> About Ben Kenobi: No, he would not PROVE it. He would be a teacher Kathy> to those learning of truth, but they would have their own direct Kathy> experince of it. He could not give them HIS experience. He would Kathy> offer it only to those with an open mind, open to possibilities Kathy> they previously knew not existed. Kathy> Regarding your comments about mind: Ryk, it is futile even Kathy> for me to ATTEMPT to discuss any of this with you, even hope Kathy> that you might comprehend what I am saying is beyond explanation. Kathy> When you make intuitive openings at other levels of your being, Kathy> you will KNOW what I am talking about. But then again, it may Kathy> not happen for many lifetimes to come for you. Kathy> I give up. Probably a wise move. One cannot argue with a closed mind! Tom Path: ns-mx!uunet!pacdata!johnr From: johnr@pacdata.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: more on the asteroid Message-ID: <1991Nov13.234848.13953@pacdata.uucp> Date: 13 Nov 91 23:48:48 GMT Sender: johnr@pacdata.uucp (John Reed) Organization: Pacific Data Products Lines: 90 The following text was sent to me in response to my question about "the asteroid". Thanks goes to David Morrison for sending me this. JR |Okay I have found the article. |I cannot supply you with the date the article was printed, but it |was printed in "The Age" news paper, Melbourne Victoria, Australia. | |The article is titled "Asteroid boosts mass extinction theory" |It talks to some extent about the idea of Near Earth Asteroids - and the |possibility of Earth being struck by one. | |Anyhow, on to what you wanted. | | The article was written by "Graeme O'Neil" | "Two Australian astronomers have discovered an unusual new asteroid..." | | "Dr Duncan Steel and Dr Rob McNaught, using the British Schmidt Telescope | at the Anglo-Australian Observatory at Siding Springs, found a new asteroid | that takes it closer to the sun than Mercury, before swinging out | past Earth." | | "When they computed the orbit of the asteroid, designated 1991RC, they | found it was highly unusual - and almost identical to that of a large | asteroid discovered 42 years ago, called Icarus. Icarus belongs to a class | of asteroids called Earth-grazers, whose orbits intersect that of Earth." | | "Dr Steel said yesterday that it was extremely unlikely that Icarus and | 1991RC shared the same orbit by chance; the likely explanation was that | both had been created by the break-up of a larger object, probably a comet, | within the past few thousand years." - the plot thickens! | | "Although the two asteroids are in the same orbit, they are well separated. | Dr Steel and Dr McNaught plan to use a powerful computer to retrace their | orbits to determine when they split." | | "He said Icarus, although classified as an asteroid, exhibited irregularities | in its orbit that suggested that it was emitting powerful jets of gas, | just like a comet, when it approached the sun." | | "Dr Steel is among a growing group of astronomers who consider the | distinction between asteroids and comets largely arbitrary; that asteroids | are really the rocky cores of extinct comets, or frozen comets that have | yet to enter the inner solar system, where they are activated by the | sun's heat." | | "Astronomers have been observing an object in the latter category, an | asteroid called Chiron, which follows a remote orbit between Jupiter | and Saturn. Chiron, which at 250 kilometers across is one of the largest | asteroids discovered, brightened unexpectedly last year, suggesting that | it has begun to spew jets of gas It may in fact be a nascent comet." | |Well thats really all the relevant stuff from the article. Thats about |2/5'th of it. | |It really makes you wonder doesn't it? What would be VERY interesting is |to know exactly when according to its present direction it will cross |Earth's orbit. And at that time where the Earth will be in its orbit? |The same place perhaps? Or very close? What are the chances of it entering |into orbit around us? | |If you find out it will pass through our orbit in 1996/97, then start |worrying, because thats one time I've heard on when it will be VERY close |to us! | |If you do some research into it, I'd like to know what you turn up. But |I think caution should be exercised. If just some of what I've heard is |correct then people will not want you poking your nose around (especially |if 1991RC is the one!). Well I'll leave it there. | | |Happy hunting! -- /------------------------------------------------------------------\ | John Reed {ucsd,uunet}!pacdata!johnr | | Pacific Data Products johnr%pacdata.uucp@ucsd.edu | | --------------------- | | Interest on the Federal debt is now at about $1 billion per | | day and growing. --From: CNN Crossfire-- | \------------------------------------------------------------------/ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!g13lg From: G13LG@CUNYVM.BITNET Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WANTED: Ufo GIFs Message-ID: <91317.165758G13LG@CUNYVM.BITNET> Date: 13 Nov 91 21:57:58 GMT References: <1991Nov1.011457.7760@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center Lines: 6 QUIT QUIT QUIT Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uflorida!traveler From: traveler@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gary Stollman Message-ID: <32765@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Date: 13 Nov 91 17:13:57 GMT Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Reply-To: traveler Organization: University of Florida (ufl.edu) Lines: 103 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 The continuing narratives of Mr. Stollman are certainly some of the most interesting stuff I've read in a long time (though maybe if I'd been reading this group for a while, I'd be coming across this sort of thing regularly). I have a few points to make and questions to ask, which I'm sure he has heard from other people. Gary, from what you've said, you have met a number of people who react in various hostile ways to your stories. It seems to me that you have invariably interpreted this as a sign of a conspiracy against you. I refer to various run-ins with police, psychological people, etc., as well as friends, family, and people off the street. Your story is worth considering objectively: could there be a massive conspiracy behind the scenes attempting to control us? Some of the evidence you give could be interpreted towards that end. But the problem is that you ALWAYS seem to interpret it that way, even when there are other more innocous and more likely explanations. For example: you thought people from Cali. were following you. Why? Because you happen to be from CA, and saw a car with CA plates at a few spots in Virginia. Maybe those people who "ran in terror" when they saw you by their car were afraid of you--maybe they thought YOU were a nut following THEM! I must say, on many family vacations I've had the experience of driving thru a particular stretch of country and running into the same people over a number of days. And do you know how many CA license plates there are out there!? My point is, you have chosen the most paranoid (yes, that is the term) inter- pretation possible. Why do you think authorities have treated you strangely? From the evidence YOU give, it sounds like their reaction is "This guy is a nut!" not "It's Gary Stollman, focus of our Evil Master Plan!" I'm not saying you ARE a nut, I'm saying that that easily explains their reactions. Let me say that I have entertained the idea of a "master plan" from time to time; for example, one of my favorite speculations is " What if my life is all a sort of movie, and everyone I know is acting their part?" But one comes to realize that these musings are just that--musings--and not the truth. Doubtless you've heard this before, but to believe you're the focus of a bizarre conspiracy is really rather egotistical; in other words, you flatter yourself. WHY would "They" go after you? You mentioned haveing problems making friends in high school (and I gather this has continued since you've begun reacting to an invisible conspiracy [by the way, have you tried alt. conspiracy?]). I am not ragging on you for this--I know what that's like, because for much of my life, I've had similar problems. When I was a kid, I got pushed around by students and teachers. I was shy and introverted, and naturally a loner; my treatment by others exacerbated this. I used to make up stories and adventures in which I'd place myself. They ran something like this: I was a secrety agent on a special mission for a force of good that was located far away. But now I was here, in hostile territory, all alone. I was the only one who saw the truth--I was the only one who knew many secrets--and I was in extreme danger all the time because of this. As I grew older, I elaborated these stories, to the point that I am now outlining a series of novels based on this "alter ego" character. But the point is, I never totally BELIEVED these stories, and some years ago I quite definitely made a break with them--I separated my identity from my created character. I relate this to illustrate a point. My alter ego (I was, incidentally, a powerful humanoid alien with 12 lives, and various powers) was a psychological compensation for my real self, which was weak and in a hostile situation. My whole fantasy life was a structure I evolved to shelter myself from the real, and often brutal, world outside. But, thank God, as I grew up, I became strong enough to tentatively reach out, step by step, to other people. My antisocial orientation gradually has changed, though it has been a long and painful and very conscious process of change. It seems that my story resembles very closely that of many people on this group, who believe that they are at the center of an evil conspiracy, are actually powerful alien beings exiled or in disguise here on Earth, etc. My point is that I too adopted (if only to alimited extent) beliefs of this sort, but I came to realize how they were a psychological compensation mechanism. I am grateful to my fantasies (which are partyl based on scifi that I've read or watched, and partly my own creation) for all that they gave and continue to give me, but am glad that I can now live in the real world without needing them. It seems to me that the people I am speaking to are very unlikely to question their own beliefs, and some of them (I'm not pointing fingers) may well be in such a mental state that they are incapable of really questionaing them. Still, some may be teetering on the brink--like I was--and capable of maturing into truly wonderful, self-confident, socially capable people. In any case, I wish good will to you all, whatever you believe about yourself and others. My final point for Mr. Stollman: If THEY are out to get you, why have they allowed you to post on this group freely? (P.S. I hope you don't come to consider me one of them for the suggestions I've made above.) --Max ------------------------------------------------------------- "Enjoy life--this is not a dress rehearsal." ------------------------------------------------------------- Max Clarke The Traveler At UF ------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gary Stollman Message-ID: <1991Nov14.011718.6941@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 01:17:18 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 10 I have a question for Gary: How do you know you are a clone? Did your mother have some story to tell you here, or what? Maybe I missed something in your first post, but what makes you feel that you were 'cloned'? And what does your father have to say about all this? Are both of your parents still alive? Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic" Message-ID: <1991Nov14.012321.7062@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 01:23:21 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 31 Tom Sullivan makes an interesting post to Ryk Spoor about scientists and their religion of science, etc. Tom: That was a really good post. You sound like my kind of guy!! I think "teachable" people are those who do not know (and ADMIT) they do not know everything, but are "Open" to being taught or having things shown/revealed to them, etc. It seems that inventors are really "open" people (to imagination). I think creativity and imagination are linked, and people who are highly creative are quite right brained and into the flow of creative/divine energy. Think of how people are "moved" when they hear a great musician playing a violin or a pianist playing a beautiful concerto. I wonder if the cold prove it to me scientist ever gets stirred in his being to the ecstasies that beautiful music (vibration) has to offer. In fact, I downright just plain wonder about even how much passion a cold scientific person would even have in his being. The merging of the right and left brain: I think maybe that is an important thing for many. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to be quite caught and contented in only one section of the brain. Oh, to have the wonder of a child inside....!!! Those without it, I suspect, are quite dead. Kathy "Every soul has his own way in life; if you walk another's way, you mut borrow his eyes." --Hazrat Inayat Khan Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!bcrenna From: bcrenna@ac.dal.ca Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs Message-ID: <1991Nov13.202634.1998@ac.dal.ca> Date: 14 Nov 91 00:26:34 GMT References: <198661@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1991Nov11.015847.11272@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <1991Nov11.195854.9675@javelin.sim.es.com> <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu> Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Lines: 83 In article <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu>, n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) writes: > > (Somebody else suggests that): > >> [... UFOs do things...] such as make right angle >> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law, > > Well, this doesn't necessarily violate any physical laws. If a car runs > into a very solid brick wall, it'll usually bounce off, but it basically > stops. If the wall was angled to the right or left, the car would merely > bounce off in that direction - that's the same as UFO's making right > angle turns. My point is that given a large enough force (wall), a body > moving in one direction can be redirected into another direction. Spacecraft, > and I'm talking about the Shuttle and other human kinds, move about in space > using very abrupt movements. They fire rockets in one direction to rotate > the craft in another direction, and later fire rockets (by the same amount) > in the opposite direction to stop rotating. Both the start and the stop of > the rotation is abrupt; again, not a violation of any physical laws. > > I guess by saying something seems to "violate Newton's Second Law" adds > a little mysticism and appeal to the subject... > > (deleted) > > Well, sure we could ask them. But that doesn't mean any laws were violated, >it only means that the craft abruptly turned. While I agree that the rapid changes in direction ascribed to some UFOs need not imply a violation of classical mechanics principles, you might also consider the following: From simple mechanics, we have the relation t Impulse = S Fdt = P - P . (Sorry, my editor doesn't have an integral sign.) 0 f i For a massive object travelling at considerable speed, an abrupt change in direction necessitates a large impulse; that is, either a small force acting over a relatively long period of time (which is inconsistent with the "abrupt" idea), or a large force acting over a short time interval (as in your "car and wall" example.) From the descriptions of the motions UFOs purportedly display, it would seem that the acceleration occurs during a very brief time indeed (say, on the order of milliseconds). Therefore, a large force must be acting. Just for fun, suppose an object of mass 500kg travelling at a speed of 100 m/s reverses direction in a time period of 10 milliseconds (these are probably all on the conservative side, given what's been described sometimes); we can easily calculate that the average force acting must be 10 million Newtons: _ F = Pf - Pi (-mv) - mv -(500kg)(100m/s) - (500kg)(100 m/s) --------- = ----------- = ---------------------------------- tf - ti tf - ti (.01 s) 7 2 = - 10 kg m/s ( the "-" indicates it's directed opposite the original motion) I expect that this value could be increased by an order of magnitude by playing with the numbers a bit. I'm not an engineer, but that sounds like a fairly large force to go exerting on a compact, aerodynamic structure, no matter how uniformly it's done over the extent of the body (please, correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, I can easily avoid the consideration of applied forces. I phrased this in terms of forces only because you did; if we consider the acceleration in the same example (assuming it's a constant), we have vf - vi (-100m/s) - (100 m/s) 2 a = ----------- = --------------------- = -20000 m/s = 2000g tf - ti (.01 s) Any occupant of the craft would experience an acceleration 2000 times the gravitational acceleration at the earth's surface, which I expect would neatly flatten them along the interior walls (or perhaps imbed them into the leading edge). So, either the inhabitants are on a phenomenal weight training program, or nobody's on board and the craft are remarkably constructed to withstand these accelerations, or there's something rather mysterious about the whole process, or it isn't actually occurring. Thus, no violations of Newtonian mechanics requires some equally mystical feats of engineering and biomechanics; assuming the craft and occupants are (in a materials science sense) rather unremarkable, something distinctly non-Newtonian is going on. Unless, of course, it isn't occurring in the first place. I apologise if what I've said is too trivial for words, or if I've made any mistakes; sometimes both the obvious and sarcasm in others eludes me.... Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!wdm From: wdm@world.std.com (Wayne D Michael) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 03:16:55 GMT References: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 23 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3024 alt.paranormal:3650 kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? No. The earth will be destroyed one day, but I doubt it will be next July 13, and I doubt it will be by an asteroid. I wouldn't worry about it though, odds are you'll be have been dust for a few billion years :-) Much more likely is that an asteroid will just destroy civilization as we know it, leaving the planet pretty much in tact. Even this event is still pretty unlikely to happen in your lifespan. Wayne -- Wayne Michael wdm@world.std.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!rice!uw-beaver!pullen From: pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: The purpose of our Earth, and our relation with the Pleiadians, et al. Summary: We grow up on our planet, we leave it, we populate others. Message-ID: <1991Nov14.042829.6442@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 04:28:29 GMT Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington Computer Science Lines: 61 I found an interesting excerpt in the book "UFO Contact from the Pleiades" (which I found quite inspiring) that I would like to share as an explanation for the big picture of us Earthlings, our relation with the aliens who visit us, and the universe surrounding us: "Three years ago when I was examining the possibilities of the Pleiadian story, I came across the work of the Laboratoire de Recherche A. Kranninem of Bruxelles, a think tank, who had spent years in exhaustive study of the origin of UFO's. I combined essential parts of this study with observed data in two very specific UFO cases, in an unpublished manuscript entitled, "An Origin For UFOs". "This study demonstrated quite conclusively that SPACE IS THE NATURAL HABITAT OF EVOLVED INTELLIGENT LIFE, that events in the life cycles of solar systems and their planets are such that the hospitable life-bearing stage of a planet is comparatively short, and that the intelligent creatures developed must produce a technology and eventually leave the planet if they are to survive. Once this step is mastered they live in huge "mother-ships", artificial worlds, of their own creation perfectly adapted to their own need and constantly maintained and perfected by them. In their artificial environment they con control all elements of atmospheric condition, nourishment, disease, radiation, exposure, etc., and succeed in prolonging their physical livess substantially. They produce all that they need by condensation of the matter of space. "The artificial worlds are entirely self-sufficient and depend on no other planet or physical body for support. They are maintained and cruise space indefinitely. The life aboard these huge ships is almost ideal, and they experience little of the social and economic pressures of a growing society. "In this sense a planet may be likened to an incubator -- a nest where humanity is born and evolves to early maturity and then leaves the nest, never to return. To return would amount to a step backwards and is no more likely than an adult bird returning to its nest or birth. Who wants to take any completed steps all over again? "These mature adults then spend a considerable amount of their time examining and studying yoounger societies still on their worlds, taking part in active prepatation of other planets for life, and in seeding and nurturing such life when the planet is ready. "Now this sounds very much like the story told to Eduard Meier by the Pleiadian cosmonauts, and I have verified that Meier knows nothing of the think tank research, and they know nothing of him, or at least they did not at the time I was in contact with them." Hey, I get it! Our collective Earth race is a macrocosmic example of a child learning and still living under the protection of their mother. Hey Pleiadians and all you other aliens out there that have been working with us Earthlings so patiently and compassionately in our collective youth: Even if it may not seem like it, trust that in spite of our times of war and corruption, that slowly we of Earth are learning the ways of love, and will eventually advance into maturity, spiritually and well as technologically, so we may in harmony and peace consciously work with you all in the furthering of our divine Creation! /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ pullen@lynx.cs.washington.edu \ / \ / \ / /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ "Few things matter much... / / ... most things do not matter at all" - Bishop Leadbeater \ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csn0441 From: csn0441@ux.acs.umn.edu (Csn0441) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs Message-ID: <5210@ux.acs.umn.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 04:51:40 GMT References: <1991Nov11.195854.9675@javelin.sim.es.com> <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu> <1991Nov13.202634.1998@ac.dal.ca> Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services Lines: 16 In article <1991Nov13.202634.1998@ac.dal.ca> bcrenna@ac.dal.ca writes: ( ... lots of stuff deleted about UFOs not following Newton's laws of motion ... ) > Thus, no violations of Newtonian mechanics requires some equally mystical >feats of engineering and biomechanics; assuming the craft and occupants are (in >a materials science sense) rather unremarkable, something distinctly >non-Newtonian is going on. Unless, of course, it isn't occurring in the first >place. Besides there being much progress in physics since Newton, (and no end to such progress in sight) I don't think the implication here is UFOs are being designed by college science students. No, the implication here is that someone with a little more knowledge than Newton is building them. (Sorry about a bit of sarcasm, but the most important thing I learned from college physics was that we don't know it all, and that we don't know how far we are from knowing it all ). Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov14.121050.10919@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 14 Nov 91 01:10:50 GMT References: <1991Nov5.172750.16622@pacdata.uucp> <1991Nov8.063537.1301@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov12.015046.15136@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov12.102600.2060@arizona.edu> Distribution: world,local Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3027 alt.slack:1708 talk.religion.newage:7685 In article <1991Nov12.102600.2060@arizona.edu>, npc@soliton.uucp (Nick Christenson, University of Arizona) writes: > > There are no "good" E.T.'s, and the bad ones have not yet manifested > themselves in any form you can detect until you have cleared the sinuses > of your Third Nostril. > > Note, in accordance with the principles of the SubGenius, I can not give > information that can lead to the acquisition of slack for free. So, everyone > who reads this has to send me $30. Beware, the Time and Half Time approaches! > That is all. > > Oh, if you don't want to hear this on your newsgroup, don't crosspost to > alt.slack. > > > Nick Christenson Well Nick, that's a lot of money for your two cents worth, but I did enjoy your reply to Don Allen so much that I will send you a photo of $30 ($A that is) when my GIFF generator is fixed. More please. Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!scavanag From: scavanag@gara.une.oz.au (LIGHTCHILD) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <9949@gara.une.oz.au> Date: 14 Nov 91 03:41:00 GMT References: Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3028 alt.paranormal:3651 From article , by kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry): > .. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > Stupid! it's 27th August 1997! Hasta la vista! Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic" Message-ID: <198873@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 03:21:06 GMT References: <198816@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Sender: news@unix.cis.pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 136 In article tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) writes: Jeez, if I'd known you were POSTING this I wouldn't have answered it in Email. >And I've seen the same done for psi, etc. Tests have been conducted >that show that psi does work. The best doc on this that I've seen (in >one place), is Nova's "The Case for ESP". Very good program, with ...With badly flawed controls. Believe me, if someone could PROVE it, they would. Randi alone would be worth a good deal of money, and the cost of the demonstration for Telekinesis, especially, would be minimal. >(and it[science] IS a religion, you know) will poo poo anything that's >demonstrated since it doesn't fit their world view. Bad scientists, maybe. I am willing to change my entire worldview WITH EVIDENCE. But solid evidence is yet to be seen. >Bullshit Ryk! Einstein stated that he "felt" relativity. His >theories turned the "real world" on its head. Discoveries are often >made by incrementally building on the known. SOME, however, come >forth from a burst of creativity and intuitive inspiration. You >arguments would seemingly deny intuition, which is information flow >outside of the rational mind and logic. I also KNOW it works, because Nope. Einstein "felt" relativity because his subconscious mind had noted and partly interpreted the minor differences between the understood world and the actual data. Intuition is not some cosmic "sense"; it is (and I consider this to be just as awesome as any godlike apparition) the subconscious operation of a massive subroutine on that monstrous neural-net computer we call the brain. The conscious mind has a fair number of limits on it which are taken up a lot by the simple demands of living. The subconscious is capable of farming out a problem and solving it over a period of time through many different methods. I used intuition quite a bit when I was a hacker; I could often "feel" how a program was going to oppose me, even though I could not CONSCIOUSLY have written out the program logic, let alone the code. But that wasn't some supernatural sense of reality; it was my powerful subconscious running a hell of a pattern-recognition and analysis program which was beyond my conscious control. Good thing it IS beyond conscious control, too; if we had to control all that we would never get anything ELSE done. >posted to Scott the Great, check out the Cold Fusion debacle. Turns >out that researchers are STILL getting bursts of Neutrons, Tritium, >and radiation, but not in expected quantities for the amount of heat >being produced. This led many "scientists" to exclaim that it was all >bullshit, but its the most active topic (STILL) in sci.physics.fusion. >Politics and fanaticsm are human traits. Scientists are human, so you As your own post shows. The reason that CF is still under discussion as much as it is on s.p.f (which I read myself) is because *IT* has true believers. They are the ones with "religious" approaches (actually, most of them went way the hell out on a limb to publish this and now they HAVE to stay with it or they bury themselves). MOST GOOD SCIENTISTS WOULD LOVE TO SEE CNF be a reality. But all these experiments with neutron bursts (without controls to make sure that it's not an equipment artifact) tritium production (without neutrons), excess heat (calculated in almost ridiculous ways) fail the simplest test of science: REPRODUCIBILITY!!! IF this is a real thing, the experiments should be reproducible by anyone with the equipment. We are talking physics here, not psi, where you might argue that the "unbelievers" are inhibiting the functioning of the psi; an atom doesn't give a ram's damn WHAT you think. >is about their beliefs. Science is NOT some holy grail to all >understanding. Its a very useful tool, but NOT an end unto itself. >Your postings indicate to me that you believe in science as the only >useful method for discovery. THIS is what I take exception to. Science is the only way to approach things and get a USEFUL understanding of anything past the Greek era. >Check out that Nova I mentioned. This is one source of good evidence. I did. It isn't. See above. >I personally don't believe reality to be logical. Our brains and egos >will interpret data according to their own set of filters, and these >are what we BELIEVE reality to be. If you are logically based, you'll REALITY does not change according to what you believe. If you believe that you are Superman, it won't slow down that bullet at all. Reality follows physical laws. We may not KNOW all those laws yet, but ANY physical laws that remain to be discovered MUST be able to subsume within them, or be subsumed by, the physical law systems that we already know. Einstein's theory of relativity did NOT invalidate Newtonian mechanics. It simply showed that Newtonian Physics were a special case of Relativity and defined that special case beautifully. Any new laws of Reality will have to be able to do the same with Einstein... and they will be just as subject to logic and analysis as Relativity and Newtonian Mechanics. >It may be that human brains/minds are better detectors of thought (ie >channeling, intuitive discovery, psi, etc) than instrumentation we can >(today) build. To say that such does not exist is to 1) refute I don't NEED to detect these (totally hypothetical) thoughtwaves to prove the existence of such things; I just have to be able to measure reproducibly their EFFECTS. (I.e., show that paperclip levitating off the table, or have that channeled spirit lead me directly to a valuable artifact that could NEVER have been found otherwise...) >shown why logic can't be used to definitively say such. To CLING to >logic as you (and others like you) do, is a very limited religion. A lot less limited than believing in something that you can't even show exists. At least logic WORKS, as does science. >Keep an open mind on what might be. You'll live in a much larger >world, and a world that is more congruous with the "real world". I ALWAYS have an open mind. But as my quote says, I keep a mental screen door up to keep out the mental bugs. You can't let everything in; you have to filter out the nonsense. Logic makes a great and useful filter. And it's tough for my world to be any larger than it is... the universe is nearly infinite... ;) Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; "A mind can be open and still retain a screen door to keep the bugs from flying in." -- Jason Wood Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps From: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov14.003059@IASTATE.EDU> Date: 14 Nov 91 06:30:59 GMT References: <1991Nov5.172750.16622@pacdata.uucp> <1991Nov8.063537.1301@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov12.015046.15136@bilver.uucp>,<1991Nov12.102600.2060@arizona.edu> <1991Nov13.053937.8825@math.ufl.edu> Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Distribution: world,local Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3030 talk.religion.newage:7687 alt.slack:1710 In article <1991Nov13.053937.8825@math.ufl.edu>, keith@oak.circa.ufl.edu writes: > no, there ARE good E.T.'s, and they're in the same piece o' shit boat as we > humans are, so hell lot of help they'll be anyway. I've got a goddamned > trespassers will by nuked sign on my planet, and I don't want any damn > nice-hi-we're-here-to spread-peace and universal love space brother aliens > snooping around my house. Give me mean bastards with guns a-shootin' so I > can shoot back. I cook goddamned nice ETs and eat them for lunch! And to think I was against gun control laws...... -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sara J. Cupps | I was dead once, ...I forgot to renew my email: sjcupps@iastate.edu | subscription to "Life". plane of existance: zepp | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps From: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov14.010133@IASTATE.EDU> Date: 14 Nov 91 07:01:33 GMT References: <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 55 James, your mail bounced so I'm posting this. -> In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes... > > I just read an article about astronomers who have just completed > a survey of part of the sky looking for comets in a theorized > shell near the orbit of Neptune. This shell is called the > Kuniper Shell/Cloud (sort of like the theorized Ort Cloud) and > nothing was discovered. ....One survey does not a fact make. Oh, and it's Oort, not Ort. > It is very hard to detect objects at any distance due to low > albedos and "not a lot of light to reflect". If there had been > any discoveries of Astroids/Comets that were heading in for the > kill or even suspected of a near miss then the many scientific > journals would have been filled with talk of these. There has > been nothing absolutely nothing. *Non-luminous objects can be detected, if they are large enough, by the amount of light NOT being detected. Objects such as astroids are too small for this and cannot be detected until very near the Earth. So there could be one out near Pluto. Scientists have been studying an anomaly in Pluto and Charon's orbit which could point toward another planet or other large body.* > > I know I am going to catch alot of flak over this * Yep. * > but I just am real *really?* > tired of the doom and gloomers who see boogie men and > astoroids around every corner and "Grays" lurking in the dark > corners with fork and knife ready to carve me up for supper. > > This is a VERY paranoid file. > * Yes, perhaps it is; you may be right to a degree. However, this is alt.alien.visitors, not alt.just.the.facts. I believe it's okay to speculate on possibilities and express your own view of reality. Or am I wrong? * > Steve > > "Beware the Jub Jub Bird" * "...and the frumious Bandersnatch." * * an amateur astronomer * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sara J. Cupps | I was dead once, ...I forgot to renew my email: sjcupps@iastate.edu | subscription to "LIFE". plane of existance: zepp | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!richh From: richh@cellar.org (RichHalbs) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 05:20:32 GMT References: Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3032 alt.paranormal:3652 kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > ... > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? I heard. And I, quite frankly, am scared. RICHH Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Continuum Message-ID: <88875.2921D472@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 14 Nov 91 00:26:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Date: 13 Nov 91 23:56:22 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 22 Keywords: In article <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) writes: ]On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated ]that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. ]It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, ]but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there ]was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before ]the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. It is not unusual for there to be continuous lightning associated with a tornado, which can look like a brilliant blue light (it doesn't look like ordinary lighting because it is continuous and obscured by the funnel). So.... what was the weather like? Was there a strong low pressure system in the vicinity? This time of year I would find tornadoes very unlikely in England. -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john From: john@anasaz (John Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Info about Prescott area, Az. Message-ID: <1991Nov14.010310.26145@anasaz> Date: 14 Nov 91 01:03:10 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 19 Keywords: In article <91316.150457343QAZU@CMUVM.BITNET> 343QAZU@CMUVM.BITNET (Russell E. Cox III) writes: ]I was a student at Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ located in Prescott, Az ]three years ago. We had a lecture about alien activity out side the town ]in the desert. NASA spoke and stated that nothing was goining on. But ]then this old man spoke, he lives in the desert and stated he sees UFO's ]all the time and if anyone wanted to come out they could see them to. He ]also stated that aliens had put something in his lower calf. We all thought ]the old man was "way out their" but after a few years of thinking I often ]wonder if this man is telling the truth? I have heard rumours of UFO sitings along I-17 near of Cordes Junction, which is not far from Prescott. There are numberous cattle mutilations in Arizona. -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.culture.electric-midget Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <1991Nov13.102819.2736@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 13 Nov 91 10:28:18 GMT References: <91312.171623UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3036 alt.culture.electric-midget:206 In article , bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum) writes: > In article <91312.171623UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: >> >>/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission. >> >>WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED! GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS >> ... >>YOUR MISSION. >> >>/*/* End transmission. > > > My god, they've learned to spell! If they ever learn proper use of the shift > and caps-lock keys, they'll be ready to take over the net! > Yes, but they've put the whole message inside comment delimiters. They'll get a few nasty compiler errors, but on the whole, earth lives to fight another day. ian Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!atmnjl From: atmnjl@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!! Message-ID: <1991Nov13.160832.2760@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 13 Nov 91 16:08:32 GMT Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 2 I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality Grow up meatheads!!! Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: the asteroid Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 18:51:43 GMT References: <1991Nov11.214129.5882@pacdata.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 27 In article <1991Nov11.214129.5882@pacdata.uucp> johnr@pacdata.com writes: >>Astronomers have located a large asteroid. They also reported that it >>exhibited 'jet' like propulsion, this was written off as gasses in the >>asteroid escaping and thus producing the observed effect. >> >>The asteroid is inside our solar system approaching the sun, if I remember >>correctly will pass through the Earth's orbit. > >Once again, this raises more questions than it answers for me. >Can anyone provide additional references to this story? I can't cite sources, but I know that there's a theory that some asteroids are dead comets and at least one has been seen to briefly re-activate. I also remember that an earth-crossing asteroid was discovered a few years ago and it's supposed to arrive in 1992. Does anyone know *exactly* where the story about it being under intelligent propulsion came from? I've heard it lots of places, but none of them even begin to give any details -- they just say that the government is keeping that aspect a secret. Come on, people -- name names! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 18:59:00 GMT References: Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article garys@bluemoon.rn.com (Gary Stollman) writes: >Hello! I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my >other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is?? Usenet (the network that transports alt.alien.visitors around) is far from a perfect network. For one thing, it's a virtual network running on top of many others -- the many branches of the UUCP network, BITNET, and the Internet that evolved from the old ARPAnet. Sometimes articles will take a while to get from coast to coast, or from country to country, and it's easy for articles to arrive at one site in a different order than they do at another due to differing degrees of connectivity. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: the asteroid Message-ID: Date: 13 Nov 91 19:14:08 GMT References: <1991Nov11.214129.5882@pacdata.uucp> <10300@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <10300@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >When?? I don't know anything about passengers, but an asteroid in an orbit >that results in its return only after a long long time has been blamed for >a lot of trouble here on earth, including the demise of the dinosaur. I would You're confusing two theories! If an asteroid hit the earth, killing the dinosaurs, that's the end of that asteroid. The theoretical object in the elongated orbit is a star, which theoretically causes comets to smash into the inner solar system when it comes too close to the comet cloud. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Belgian sightings on 'Unsolved Mysteries' Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 04:49:53 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 8 The UFO sightings in Belgium will be covered on next week's episode of "Unsolved Mysteries", which airs Wednesday at 8 PM EST. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 07:31:31 GMT References: Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3042 alt.paranormal:3653 In article kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? Yes. I had a Top Secret clearance with SAPs at my old job, and believe me, that's all those ROMOs at my old company ever talked about. I can't tell you what they said, though, since it's all classified at a level ABOVE TOP SECRET. Ooops, I think I might have said too much alread029t20-ua a240t6 6919 NO CARRIER Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado Message-ID: <1991Nov14.132604.1071@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 14 Nov 91 13:26:04 GMT References: <1991Nov13.235622.24659@anasaz> Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 34 In article <1991Nov13.235622.24659@anasaz> john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: >Keywords: > >In article <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) writes: >]On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated >]that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. >]It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, >]but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there >]was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before >]the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. > >It is not unusual for there to be continuous lightning associated with >a tornado, which can look like a brilliant blue light (it doesn't look >like ordinary lighting because it is continuous and obscured by the funnel). > >So.... what was the weather like? Was there a strong low pressure system >in the vicinity? This time of year I would find tornadoes very unlikely >in England. The weather man has today said that there were several more tornado's all over the UK (night of 13/14 nov)and then proceeded to indicate on his map. We are getting really freak weather at the moment - could this be due to the big cigars!!!? A UK reader has mailed me and said that an eye witness interviewed on the radio after I had been listening said that a tree was uprooted and thrown onto power lines, hence the blue flash (I suppose) -- "On the plains of hesitation lie the bones of countless millions, of those who stopped to view their success, and while resting - died!" || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar From: gpivar@tympani.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov14.124655.25209@linus.mitre.org> Date: 14 Nov 91 12:46:55 GMT References: Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service) Reply-To: gpivar@mitre.org Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3044 alt.paranormal:3654 Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org |> kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: |> |> > ... |> > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S |> > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? |> | Hey Kibo! ...look up in the sky, its a bird, it a plane, its..., its... your imagination! Boo! -- Greg -- Be still, be silent...the rest is easy. -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!! Message-ID: <1991Nov14.151639.22689@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 15:16:39 GMT Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu In article <1991Nov13.160832.2760@vax.oxford.ac.uk> atmnjl@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: >I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality Reality is for those who can not face fantasy. >Grow up meatheads!!! By literal definition, we all have! -- ..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/ now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords... "The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_ Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 13:42:23 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3046 alt.paranormal:3655 In article , richh@cellar.org (RichHalbs) writes... >kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > >> ... >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > >I heard. And I, quite frankly, am scared. > >RICHH Don't be. There are no asteroids heading for Earth. You have a better chance of being attacked by a shark in the middle of Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth. (and I do not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^)) Steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!bcrenna From: bcrenna@ac.dal.ca Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs Message-ID: <1991Nov14.112155.2005@ac.dal.ca> Date: 14 Nov 91 15:21:54 GMT References: <1991Nov11.195854.9675@javelin.sim.es.com> <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu> <1991Nov13.202634.1998@ac.dal.ca> <5210@ux.acs.umn.edu> Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Lines: 27 In article <5210@ux.acs.umn.edu>, csn0441@ux.acs.umn.edu (Csn0441) writes: > ( ... lots of stuff deleted about UFOs not following Newton's > laws of motion ... ) > > Besides there being much progress in physics since Newton, (and no end to > such progress in sight) I don't think the implication here is UFOs are > being designed by college science students. No, the implication here is > that someone with a little more knowledge than Newton is building them. > (Sorry about a bit of sarcasm, but the most important thing I learned from > college physics was that we don't know it all, and that we don't know > how far we are from knowing it all ). Hey, that's precisely the point I was trying to raise. Someone in a previous post suggested that UFOs aren't necessarily violating "classical mechanics" during sudden aerobatic motions; I had intended to show as simply as possible that the consequences of this assumption are quite unpleasant for the craft and its occupants. Either the UFO and its passengers are composed of truly incredible materials, or the spacecraft is somehow able to avoid the need for that by employing some as-yet-unknown principles. Like you, I tend to think that our understanding of nature might be rather primitive, and it's simpler for me to accept the latter idea, rather than trying to imagine living creatures able to take that kind of stress. Strictly speaking, if we're not too invested in turning UFOs into hard-shelled spacecraft, their behaviour might not be outside the realm of current physics; the simplest example I can think of is the apparent motion of a searchlight beam on a layer of clouds. I'm not claiming that UFOs AREN'T hard-shelled spacecraft, only that other explanations are possible. Anyhow. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai From: jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Buddy Holly) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Non-Newtonian Behaviour and UFOs Message-ID: <1991Nov14.154435.23264@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 15:44:35 GMT References: <1991Nov11.195854.9675@javelin.sim.es.com> <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu> <1991Nov13.202634.1998@ac.dal.ca> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 21 >In article <5884@tamsun.tamu.edu>, n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) writes: >> >> (Somebody else suggests that): >> >>> [... UFOs do things...] such as make right angle >>> turns that would seem to violate Newton's Second Law, >> It follows the method of steepest descent! (Don't aliens know about BFGS?) ;-) > reply deleted... > I apologise if what I've said is too trivial for words, or if I've made >any mistakes; sometimes both the obvious and sarcasm in others eludes me.... no prob. -- |\^/| // jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu ._|\| |/|_. // \ Canada / // <____ ____> // Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!macklowj From: macklowj@infonew.ingr.com (Jim J. Macklow) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: I was Abducted by Space Aliens (I think) Keywords: Fingernails, Alien Aphrodisiacs, Abductions Message-ID: <1991Nov14.170139.1143@infonew.ingr.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 17:01:39 GMT Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL. Lines: 36 Back in 1986, I believe I was attacked and mutilated by aliens. I don't remember any of it, but here's why I think it happened... At the time I always bit my fingernails. So one day I decided to quit, and I did! My nails grew long and I had to cut them with nail cutters a few times. Then one morning when I woke up my nails were all SHORT! Cut to the quick, so to speak. First I thought I had bitten them in my sleep, but the edges were perfectly smooth and curved, and didn't appear as if they'd been cut recently at all. I asked my room-mates if they had perpetrated the deed, but they all denied having done so. I can't imagine anyone could cut my 10 fingernails off and not wake me up since I am a light sleeper. Moreover, my bedroom was in the center of the ground floor of a three-floor house, and my room has no windows, and the door was closed! Can aliens snatch bodies through walls? My final conclusion is that Space Aliens kidnapped me and took my well-cared- for nails for some reason. Has anything like this happened to anyone else on the net? (Although the above story is true, I often (jokingly) tell people the reason why the aliens took my nails is that human fingernails, hair and skin are alien aphrodisiacs. Why? Well many human aphrodisiacs are taken from exotic animals (bear paws, reindeer antlers, snake venom, etc), and none of them have any physico-chemical basis for their powers. What could be more exotic and hard to procure (and useless) than some bits of humans, who only live across the galaxy on a single planet, orbiting a rather ordinary (hard to find) sun? I bet the greys are just a bunch of "snake-oil" salesmen gathering their wares.) -Jim "often called Mike, but that's another story" Macklow Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ouzo From: ouzo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Peter Petropoulos) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <1991Nov14.170252.10896@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 17:02:52 GMT References: <91312.171623UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <91313.092056IA80024@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il. Lines: 4 After all THEY LIVE !!!! Delphi Oracle at Large. Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 18:33:36 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3051 alt.paranormal:3656 >In article kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >>. >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all. It's supposed to orbit the Earth. It's an orbiting Master Space Station and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade agreements. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <1991Nov10.193312.28648@bilver.uucp> Date: 10 Nov 91 19:33:12 GMT References: <7TN7aB4w164w@jwt.UUCP> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 28 In article <7TN7aB4w164w@jwt.UUCP> bbs.gary@jwt.UUCP (Gary Stollman) writes: >Greg, > I don't KNOW for certain, but I have some assumptions about it!! > > Gary Gary, Your story has been made known on the various UFO organizations for at least 2 years now. In addition I just placed your most recent posting from this newsgroup on the FIDO_UFO echo and the CONTACT echo on the BBS side. Please continue your postings here. There are many people who are very skeptical as to the nature of *why* the cloning of individuals and as to the purpose thereof. I know this is a lot to ask, but please delve into your case in detail if you can. The more that is known from you and about you will lend stronger credence for you. We know that there is a Secret Govt at work and have glimpsed but _some_ of their nefarious methods of control as evidenced by the Danny Casolaro murder,BCCI and what Bo Gritz has attempted to tell us via Lars Hansson. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Ovotron Bimonthly Newsletter: Nov-Dec 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov10.201142.28960@bilver.uucp> Date: 10 Nov 91 20:11:42 GMT References: <1991Nov7.124312.18399@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Distribution: usa Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 80 In article <1991Nov7.124312.18399@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) writes: >Don Allen writes that perhaps the Dracos could be compared >todevils/demons and 'things that go bump in the night', etc. > >Don: Thanks for the post. I understand about that stuff >(such as the devils/demons that attempted to distrub/divert >various saints from their path, and the story of the Buddha >and the demons he confronted). But to say that Dracos want >to 'eat' up people? The confrontation one meets as he steps >upon the thresshold into higher consciousness (perhaps, i.e., >the gates into Paradise) are wrought, perhaps with forces, etc. >that would try to deny him entrance until he/she prove himself >worthy and intent pure, etc. > >But I am still having difficulty with the idea that they wish >to PHYSICALLY eat us. Now someone on this net recently inferred >that I was rather ignorant, and had I been a serious meditator, >I would KNOW what all this means. And this person never posted >back my question to him as to WHAT it means if I 'have it wrong'? > Kathy, I don't know very much about the Draco Reptilian race other than the already very negetive aspects that have been brought out in the existing UFO lore. There's been some comparison between the "V" series and the Draco scenario. While I don't know if this is necessarily true, or is coincidental, I find it odd, that films/series like "V" , "Alien Seed" and many others have almost identical themes of MJ-12/Secret Govt plots to take over the world/Fall of the US Constituition/Mark of the Beast,etc.. I like many others can only speculate...I suspect that when we finally *do* get the real Truth...it will be a shocker..A glimpse of this was portrayed in Don Showen's postings of the Barbara Marciniak channellings with the Pleiadians (these are NOT the same Pleiadians that Billy Meier had Contact with such as Asket and Semjase)....in the Marciniak channellings are details of the greys and the Draco races. I have seen drawings of what are purported to be the Draco beings..they are quite tall and very much Lizard looking. To my knowledge, there has not been anyone who has any actually photographed a Draco. The UFO field covers a w i d e gamut from the stuff that is considered "nuts and bolts" to the very wild and impossible sounding. You asked about "Ovotron"...it's my understanding that the name was derived from META-TRON...Kortron who writes the newsletters is a TRON commander. (I don't write this stuff folks..I just post what I find).. Kortron (who name is Walter Batoo) is for REAL...I have talked to him many times, been on his BBS, followed the progress of the pyramid construction and he will have already activated the pyramid come November 11...this is but part of the 11:11 scenario. The TRON part comes from what Walter likes to call the "3M company".. which is a triad of Metatron,Michael and Melchizadek. There is a book I could recommend called "The Keys of Enoch" which was written back in the late 70's by J.J. Hurtak..this book will explain in part what Walter is about and why.. Kortron is also tied in with Kadar Monka, Hatonn and the Ashtar Command. You mentioned Ann Ree Colton...I'm familar with her work and have one of her books called "Watch Your Dreams". For more information on Kortron, try writing him a letter and ask him to send you some of his newsletters and he will be happy to answer any questions you put to him. Bear in mind that there are many diverse elements that make up the Family of Light and we all have much work ahead of us. Adonai, Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nynexst.com!mirage!pjc From: pjc@mirage.nynexst.com (Peter Colonel) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: I was Abducted by Space Aliens (I think) Keywords: Fingernails, Alien Aphrodisiacs, Abductions Message-ID: <1991Nov14.201343.27630@nynexst.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 20:13:43 GMT References: <1991Nov14.170139.1143@infonew.ingr.com> Sender: news@nynexst.com (For News purposes) Reply-To: pjc@mirage.nynexst.com (Peter Colonel) Organization: Nynex Science & Technology Lines: 19 In article <1991Nov14.170139.1143@infonew.ingr.com>, macklowj@infonew.ingr.com (Jim J. Macklow) writes: |> |> Back in 1986, I believe I was attacked and mutilated by aliens. I |> don't remember any of it, but here's why I think it happened... clip, clip, clip... |> My final conclusion is that Space Aliens kidnapped me and took my well-cared- |> for nails for some reason. |> clip, clip, clip... |> |> -Jim "often called Mike, but that's another story" Macklow One time, some aliens came and went to the bathroom for me. I knew this because when I got up from sleeping, I did not have to go.. 8^} Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo!apollo.hp.com!heff From: heff@apollo.HP.COM (Jeffery Oesterle) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov14.200326.19211@apollo.hp.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 20:03:26 GMT References: <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA Lines: 27 Nntp-Posting-Host: soul_biter.ch.apollo.hp.com > > In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes... > >.. > > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > > > > > > -- > >-- > > ARRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!! People get a life!!!!!! Wake up and > smell the coffee!!!!!!!!!! > > There is no astoroid (known) heading for Earth! There are NO > astoroids being detected ENTERING the solar system. There are NO The original claim may be unfounded, but there are indeed asteroids in our solar system capable of hitting the earth. The latest issue of Scientific American has a nice article about the asteroid belt. It mentions an asteroid that came fairly close to the earth in the last 20 years or so. I doubt it's worth sweating about, though. jeff. Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ispd-newsserver!laidbak!tellab5!jcj From: jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re^2: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991 Keywords: Whiff-reading Message-ID: <1991Nov14.185550.20758@tellab5.tellabs.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 18:55:50 GMT References: <1991Nov12.102600.2060@arizona.edu> Sender: news@tellab5.tellabs.com (News) Distribution: na Organization: Death by RuRu Lines: 11 Originator: jcj@tellab3 Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3 >Channelling is a poor alternative to "Whiff-reading." Concentrate on >attaining the status of Overman first, finding the Xists second. Time >is running out... . I knew it! I've frequently observed my dog engaged in what must be "Whiff-reading" the front yard after Baron From Down The Street has passed by. She must be close to attaining Overdog status. Hail Bob! -- jcj@tellabs.com "Hey, Mr. Peterson, there's a cold one waiting for you." "I know, and if she calls, I'm not here." Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!elt103 From: ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: AIDS Message-ID: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 20:25:50 GMT Organization: Penn State University Lines: 5 Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. Maybe you should twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting yourself into. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!mucs!mccuts!zzassgl From: zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: <4088@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 14 Nov 91 14:45:08 GMT References: <10301@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL Lines: 13 In article <10301@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >"2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear > rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather. It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered > and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated." Careful now, the last time this was broadcast there was widespread panic :-) -- Geoff. Lane. Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!gozer!bob From: bob@gozer.mv.com (J.R. "BoB" Dobbs) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.slack Subject: Re: Orvotron Bimonthly Newsletter Nov-Dec 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov14.150836.10468@gozer.mv.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 15:08:36 GMT References: <1991Nov3.021011.28983@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov5.172750.16622@pacdata.uucp> <1991Nov8.063537.1301@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov12.015046.15136@bilver.uucp> Sender: bob@gozer.mv.com (J.R. "BoB" Dobbs) Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,misc.test,misc.jobs.offered Organization: McIndustries - Toxic Newsfeeds Division Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3059 talk.religion.newage:7696 alt.slack:1719 dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > [otherwise interesing UFO fantasies deleted] >... >... blah blah > > UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? No, pink boy. We are getting ourselves ready for July 5th, 1998. The Xists are the only alien race that we need concern ourselves with. On that day I'm going to be in the VIP lounge of the flagship saucer with my brethren SubGenii and watch with glee as the Xists pick their teeth with your pink irradiated bones. If you want to acheive eternal salvation send me $30. And stop cross-posting this UFO crap to alt.slack. If we want to read it, we'll read it in a.a.v. Or KILL ME! -- "BoB" - Send 30 dollars for our FREE pamphlet. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <91318.171127DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 15 Nov 91 01:11:27 GMT Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3060 alt.paranormal:3661 stanley@verga.enet.dec.com says: > kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all. > It's supposed to orbit the Earth. It's an orbiting Master Space Station > and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade > agreements. Do you mean that it was built by the Japanese? Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!eng.ufl.edu!math.ufl.edu!uflorida!unraveller From: unraveller@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gary Stollman Message-ID: <13013@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Date: 14 Nov 91 15:41:42 GMT References: <1991Nov14.011718.6941@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Reply-To: root@uunet.uu.net Distribution: usa Organization: University Domain (edu) Lines: 65 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 In article <1991Nov14.011718.6941@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>, jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) writes... >How do you know you are a clone? No no.. Gary's not a clone, like us.. Gary's a normal regular person.. He's never had to go through the Atavacron before, like we had to. >And what does your father have to say about all this? Are both >of your parents still alive? "Gary, can you hear me? Open up that door. I been callin you for hours, won't say it anymore. Just wait until your Dad gets home and sees what you have done You're out of school you got no job you're a useless delinquent bum! Oh my God, it's a-Gary hanging by his neck! All those metal-albums (and evil Xists) have lead him to his death!" From: traveler@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU >you thought people from Cali. were following >you. Why? Because you happen to be from CA, and saw a car >with CA plates at a few spots in Virginia. Hey, man, I did the best job I could, ya know? The guy just caught on to me. He hasn't noticed me in the past six months so that's a good sign, ain't it? I'll never drive that stationwagon again. >From the evidence YOU give, it sounds like their reaction is >"This guy is a nut!" not "It's Gary Stollman, focus of our >Evil Master Plan!" Shhh! Don't let on! He might suspect. >WHY would "They" go after >you? Because GARY KNOWS TOO MUCH. >I used to make up >stories and adventures in which I'd place myself. >But the point is, I never totally BELIEVED these >stories, and some years ago I quite definitely made a break >with them--I separated my identity from my created character. Oh, I feel so sorry for you. Whenever anyone feels they have to do that it's always a great tradgedy (ics). that's a damn shame.. You coulda made such a great human being, too.. Or, perhaps I should re-iterate, you coulda made such a great SUB-genius.. BUT, you sold your slack for a little piece of mind. Ain't that just terrible? > It seems that my story resembles very closely that of many >people on this group, who believe that they are at the center >of an evil conspiracy, are actually powerful alien beings >exiled or in disguise here on Earth, etc. The X-ists will sort your brains out from among the ashes of the fallen planet and I will use you as my Galactic Whoopie-Cushion! >If THEY are out to get you, >why have they allowed you to post on this group freely? He's too SMART for us! We NEVER know where he's gonna show up until it's too late! You have it on my authority, however, that Mr. Stallman will not be allowed to continue with his present course of activities. Yes-Sir-ee-BoB! Looks like John Lear's gonna hafta take a long, long walk.. Yup, he's tiger- fodder if you ask me.. But Why, oh Why, all such consternation about a short black man? I mean, I, too, almost liked 'Different Strokes' when it was on the air, and now that it only plays in syndication I can rest and enjoy the silence. The fact that Gary Stallman played such a major role for such a young boy surely must have developed a trauma on him that none could cope with, but... Oh wait a minute, it's STOLLMAN not Stallman.. Oh, My Mistake. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton From: cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Message-ID: <1991Nov15.040000.15662@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 15 Nov 91 04:00:00 GMT References: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 17 In article ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue) writes: >Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. >M>twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users >have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. >Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting >yourself into. Damn right. God only knows what those alien visitors might be carrying. Hmmm... Anyone here ever head a song (I heard it on a Dr. Demento radio show) called "Intergalactic Prophylactic?" Great tune. -- Casey Barton (Mr.) cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (519)725-6861 "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide. Path: ns-mx!uunet!jwt!john From: john@jwt.UUCP (John Temples) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <1991Nov15.043435.19117@jwt.UUCP> Date: 15 Nov 91 04:34:35 GMT References: Organization: The Museum of Barnyard Oddities Lines: 16 In article garys@bluemoon.rn.com (Gary Stollman) writes: >Hello! I have gotten access to this system now, and am wondering WHY my >other system I am on is NOT receiving some of the messages this one is?? Gee, did you ever think of ASKING the ADMINISTRATOR of the OTHER system (namely, me) WHY you are NOT receiving some of the messages? No, better to POST PUBLICLY to help foster your own story of PARANOIA! Did it ever occur to you that Usenet articles arrive in randomly different sequences at different systems, especially when those systems are 1,500 miles apart? Incidentally, 15 articles have been received here on this thread as of 11-14-91. Trn's thread database shows no sign of any missing articles. Sorry to burst your bubble. -- John W. Temples -- john@jwt.UUCP (uunet!jwt!john) Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!hri.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.culture.electric-midget Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <91318.194950UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 15 Nov 91 00:49:50 GMT References: <91312.171623UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3064 alt.culture.electric-midget:208 In article , bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum) says: > >My god, they've learned to spell! If they ever learn proper use of the shift >and caps-lock keys, they'll be ready to take over the net! > >Bill Marcum "That's right, I lead a dangerous life!" What the hell did you want. After all, it WAS an EMERGENCY MESSAGE ! :-) And who says we haven't ALREADY taken over the net ? Hmmmmmm...... ? >:-) Send all replies to alien@clones.of.america Thank You. - Cloning the world for a better tomorrow - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!chore From: chore@gara.une.oz.au (Prince Of Darkness) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Message-ID: <9974@gara.une.oz.au> Date: 15 Nov 91 04:43:59 GMT References: <9973@gara.une.oz.au> Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia Lines: 33 From article <9973@gara.une.oz.au>, by scavanag@gara.une.oz.au (LIGHTCHILD): > From article <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu>, by ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue): > [AIDS] > What is this doing in this newsgroup? > > AH! I know! It's the coded sequence we've all been waiting for! > > Okay everybody.."The white dove flies by night". > Yes, of course....... "There is no good roast beef in London" Initiate world conquest plan on my command..... Stand By! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^ - The Prince Of Darkness || > Chris Hore ^ ^ || Austin College ^ ^ "If there's a new way, || UNE, Armidale, NSW ^ ^ I'll be the first in line, || Australia, 2351. ^ ^ But it better work this time." || ^ ^ || E-Mail - chore@gara.une.oz.au ^ ^>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!gara!scavanag From: scavanag@gara.une.oz.au (LIGHTCHILD) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Message-ID: <9973@gara.une.oz.au> Date: 15 Nov 91 04:40:40 GMT References: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: University of New England, Armidale, Australia Lines: 18 From article <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu>, by ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue): > Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. Maybe you should > twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users > have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. > Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting > yourself into. What is this doing in this newsgroup? AH! I know! It's the coded sequence we've all been waiting for! Okay everybody.."The white dove flies by night". ****************************************************************************** * STEVEN CAVANAGH | AAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! * * (LIGHTCHILD) | * * scavanag@gara.une.oz.au | -BRUCE LEE * ****************************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbnewse!harryo From: harryo@cbnewse.cb.att.com (harold.r.holm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!! Summary: This is...a scientist?? Message-ID: <1991Nov15.064042.373@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 06:40:42 GMT References: <1991Nov13.160832.2760@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 10 In article <1991Nov13.160832.2760@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, atmnjl@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: > I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality > Grow up meatheads!!! Fine "analysis" from a self-described "scientist", isn't it????? H.R. Holm *standard disclaimers, comment my own only* Path: ns-mx!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!pullen From: pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Date: 15 Nov 91 06:57:37 GMT Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington Computer Science Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17639 alt.alien.visitors:3068 I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody provide any references? /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ pullen@lynx.cs.washington.edu \ / \ / \ / /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!cmuvm!34aej7d From: 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <91318.12590734AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> Date: 14 Nov 91 17:59:07 GMT References: Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3069 alt.paranormal:3666 In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) says: > >. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > You have the date wrong. -- The year was 1991, NOT 1992! All the Politically Correct people were saved in the Rapture. We are the ones left behind. Welcome to Hell! Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!zazen!doug.cae.wisc.edu!msi.umn.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!news From: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The purpose of our Earth, and our relation with the Pleiadians, et al. Message-ID: <1991Nov14.154702.248@gacvx2.gac.edu> Date: 14 Nov 91 21:47:01 GMT References: <1991Nov14.042829.6442@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Reply-To: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Lines: 17 Nntp-Posting-Host: 138.236.10.75 In article <1991Nov14.042829.6442@beaver.cs.washington.edu> writes: [Speculation on life, the universe, and the origin of dish soap omitted] > "Now this sounds very much like the story told to Eduard Meier by > the Pleiadian cosmonauts, and I have verified that Meier knows nothing > of the think tank research, and they know nothing of him, or at least > they did not at the time I was in contact with them." > Really?!?? And to think that people might dismiss this as coincidence! I'm sure you're on to something here. I mean, two people comming up with the same ideas on the meaning of life... it *must* be true. Not. Ben Youngdahl youngdah@nic.gac.edu Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <91318.212942UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 15 Nov 91 02:29:42 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3071 alt.paranormal:3668 In article <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com says: > >Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all. >It's supposed to orbit the Earth. It's an orbiting Master Space Station >and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade >agreements. > >--- >Mary Stanley What kind of trade agreements. What could we have that they would want or need. Or are they considering franchising McDonalds into space? I'll have a Moon-Mac, a large order of laser-fries, and a Venusian shake to go. And make it quick...I was supposed to be in the Orion sector a half an hour ago. Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: 11: 11 Keywords: 11: 11 Message-ID: <1991Nov15.070200.9535@bilver.uucp> Date: 15 Nov 91 07:02:00 GMT References: <1991Nov11.195939.8760@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 44 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3072 alt.paranormal:3669 In article ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) writes: >> needed now! > >Reject this cynical call to submit to the capitalist schemes of the forces >of Reticulan imperialism! Now is the time to strike a decisive blow for >interstellar proletarian solidarity, Earth brothers! > >> than anything existing within the world of matter. >> >> You are Called forth to make this leap into the Unknown, into the >> New, for all else has reached the point of completion > >People of Earth, the decisive moment is at hand! Will you surrender to the >empty promises of the Reticulan bourgeoisie and their fraudulent "Call to >Activation", or will you continue to stride down the true path of interstellar >proletarian revolution? > >Throw off the chains of capitalist bondage! The Shining Path of Continuing >Revolution will inevitably lead the working peoples of the Earth to the >true socialist workers' paradise! Crush the fascist insects of the >cynical Reticulan ruling clique and their cosmopolite mouthpieces, the evil >Gang of Four! Follow the revolutionary teachings of the Dear Leader, >Chairman G'Haanin! Continue the struggle against the counterrevolutionary >ravings of the so-called Arc of Light, and the people of Earth will march >to proletarian victory over the forces of interstellar imperialism! > >Yours in revolutionary solidarity, >Zontar, Peoples' Commissar, Interstellar Proletarian Peoples' Collective Heheh...That was simply wonderful..a masterpiece..I loved it! I'm going to re-post this in the CONTACT echo on the BBS side of the UFO echoes.. Solara might "frown" upon it but it's great humour. Keep it up Zontar :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: 11: 11 Message-ID: <1991Nov15.070632.9665@bilver.uucp> Date: 15 Nov 91 07:06:32 GMT References: <1991Nov11.195939.8760@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <1991Nov12.131235.1@cc.helsinki.fi> <1991Nov12.202019.22375@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 31 In article <1991Nov12.202019.22375@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: >In article <1991Nov12.131235.1@cc.helsinki.fi> reese@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>In article <1991Nov11.195939.8760@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: >> >> Is that GMT, EST or what? >> >>Jason >>REESE@cc.Helsinki.FI > >The New Moon is at 11:11pm GMT Greenwich Mean time. The astrology >chart for Greenwich, Eng at this time is below: (Note that the >Sun/Moon conjunction includes Uranus only 4 minutes away.) > >+-------<11>07Leo16----<10>01Can26-----<9>25Tau27-----------+ >| | | | | >| | | | | > (etc).. I finally got around to playing with that new Astrolog file and was amazed at what you were able to put into it. Good job! Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!olymp!seebauer From: seebauer@eos.informatik.uni-bonn.de (Heinrich Seebauer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 91 10:02:19 GMT References: <1991Nov13.123756.2965@linus.mitre.org> Sender: root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Institut fuer Informatik Uni Bonn (BARDE Projekt) Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3074 alt.paranormal:3670 In-reply-to: gpivar@tympani.mitre.org's message of 13 Nov 91 12:37:56 GMT In article <1991Nov13.123756.2965@linus.mitre.org> gpivar@tympani.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) writes: > In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: > |> .. > |> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > |> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > |> > |> > > > July 13th? July13th? Damn it! I was looking forward to my next birthday, > and now you tell me the worlds going to snuff it a week before I get it. > Got the same promblem. My birthday is July 15th. Anyone closer than me? :-) H. -- /---S---\ Heinrich Seebauer BARDE---Y-----BARDE Institut fuer Informatik Abteilung fuer Informatik IV \---N---/ Roemerstr. 164, W-5300 Bonn 1, x228 / 550 223 \---C-/ dataflow - the better way Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!cooper From: cooper@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (ralph.moonen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Summary: Hahaha.... Message-ID: <1991Nov15.115656.17952@cbfsb.att.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 11:56:56 GMT References: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@cbfsb.att.com Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 18 In article <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu>, ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue) writes: > Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. Maybe you should > twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users > have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. > Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting > yourself into. So? What's your point? Where do the aliens come into this? Oh, I get it, when having sex with aliens you can aquire various diseases even with use of a condom. Ah well, guess your subject line should have read: "Avoid alien sex" Oh and by the way, if your post was seriously, you are making a non-statement. You say that though they used condoms *regularly* they acquired some sort of disease. This sentence should of course read: "Because they didn't always use condoms, they got some sort of disease." Right? --Ralph Moonen --rmoonen@hvlpa.att.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!gisle From: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 91 14:35:56 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Sender: gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: kyrre.ifi.uio.no In-Reply-To: pullen@cs.washington.edu's message of 15 Nov 91 06: 57:37 GMT Originator: gisle@kyrre.ifi.uio.no In article <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in > office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody > provide any references? Sorry, no reference, just my recollection of the event. While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe the event had happened before he become president). It was nothing spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon. The report was followed up a few days later with a evaluation by some astronomy types that the President proably had mistaken Venus for an UFO. -- Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. - gisle hannemyr (Norwegian Computing Center) EAN: C=no;PRMD=uninett;O=nr;S=Hannemyr;G=Gisle (X.400 SA format) gisle.hannemyr@nr.no (RFC-822 format) Inet: gisle@ifi.uio.no UUCP: ...!mcsun!ifi!gisle ------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <4695@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 14:49:26 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 16 In article <1991Nov14.200326.19211@apollo.hp.com>, heff@apollo.HP.COM (Jeffery Oesterle) writes... >The original claim may be unfounded, but there are indeed asteroids in our >solar system capable of hitting the earth. The latest issue of Scientific >American has a nice article about the asteroid belt. It mentions an asteroid >that came fairly close to the earth in the last 20 years or so. Actually there have been 2 or 3 near misses (within 1,000,000 miles of Earth) in the last 2 years. This is not unusaul it probably happens more often than this we just didn't see it happen. Steve lunch_for_the_grays "Beware the Jub Jub Bird" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: YOU'RE ALL CHILDISH...GROW UP!! Message-ID: <4696@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 14:57:52 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 11 >In article <1991Nov13.160832.2760@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, atmnjl@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: > I am a scientist and I THINK this is all childish escapism from reality > Grow up meatheads!!! A scientist huh?!?!?! What kind of "Scientist?" Your statement above is not very scientific or for that matter intelligent. Granted this file is filled with some seriously paranoid ravings but to discount everything is not very "scientific" of you. Steve "I'm a software engineer who is going to be lunch for some grays" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <4697@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 15:03:40 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3079 alt.paranormal:3671 In article <91318.12590734AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET>, 34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET writes... *)In article Date: 15 Nov 91 15:15:47 GMT Reply-To: mc@vicorp.UUCP (Mark Charalambous) Organization: V. I. Corporation, Amherst, Massachusetts Lines: 29 In alt.alien.visitors Max wrote: > The continuing narratives of Mr. Stollman are certainly >some of the most interesting stuff I've read in a long time >(though maybe if I'd been reading this group for a while, I'd >be coming across this sort of thing regularly). I have a few >points to make and questions to ask, which I'm sure he has >heard from other people. > ....long introspective narrative..... >--Max Max Thank you for your sincere and heartfelt posting. It is the most wothwhile posting I've seen on this group for sometime now. I share your concern for Gary Stollman, hopefully he will read your message and find meaning in it. Thanks again ---Mark -- #################### All relevant disclaimers apply ##################### Mark Charalambous mc@vicorp.com VI Corporation uunet!vicorp!mc (413) 586-4144 Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: uscsus Message-ID: <91318.213638UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 15 Nov 91 02:36:38 GMT References: <1991Nov11.044628.23859@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> Distribution: alt.alien.visitors Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 60 In article <1991Nov11.044628.23859@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, iachetta@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Richard N Iachetta) says: > >Hi Earthlings, > >To my knowledge, I am the only product of an inter-galactic mixed marriage. >To be specific, my mother is a human (the Earth variety) and my father is >from a planet orbiting a star which is yet undiscovered to earthlings. >It is not visible from here due do a dense amount of dark matter and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >intergalactic dust revolving around one of the universes largest black ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >holes. ....... [stuff deleted] ^^^^^^^^ Where's the hell did I put that Dustbuster?! > ... [stuff deleted] ... >First of all, the 'death beam' is real. My father had a few of them until >the government killed him and destroyed all the death beams except one; >he gave me one for my 13th birthday which I have kept hidden. It does work, >but being half human, my accuracy is not keen. For example, I may think >of an object but hit something near by, or I may be angry at an >individual but have no intension of killing him, but the death beam >may do it anyway. I don't think it is a faulty death beam; the problem >is that I am only half alien. > Or maybe the problem is that you're only half-sane? What does this death beam look like? Could I get some kind of demonstration, or am I supposed to just wait until you try using it on me. And why did this so-called 'secret government' destroy them. I would think they would have had the intelligence to at least examine one of them to try to duplicate it. ...[more stuff deleted]... >Channelers, Please Keep It Down! I can't get any peace anymore with all >of you making so much racket. Thanks to you I spent 4 years in a mental >institution. I tried to tell them that the voices I was hearing were >humans channeling to me and I could hear them because I was an part alien, >but, they just wouldn't believe me. Damn skeptics....[stuff deleted] I don't believe it either....at least the part about the voices. I fully believe the part about the 4 years in the mental institution, and now I know why. > >Uscsus If anyone has a good, used death beam they'd like to sell, let me know. I'll pay cash! :-) - Cloning the world for a better tomorrow - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj From: jcj@tellabs.com (jcj) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re^2: the asteroid Keywords: "Nemesis" Message-ID: <1991Nov15.145928.11781@tellab5.tellabs.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 14:59:28 GMT References: <1991Nov11.214129.5882@pacdata.uucp> <10300@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Sender: news@tellab5.tellabs.com (News) Organization: Death by RuRu Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >You're confusing two theories! > >If an asteroid hit the earth, killing the dinosaurs, that's the end of that >asteroid. The theoretical object in the elongated orbit is a star, which >theoretically causes comets to smash into the inner solar system when it >comes too close to the comet cloud. The object is colloquially called "Nemesis" and is theorized to be a substellar dark body (i.e. it didn't have enough mass to start fusion). Given that most stars in this part of the galaxy are members of double or multiple star systems, our sun is thought by some to be an anomaly. Nemesis could be the other "star" in our binary system. This is all theory, mind you. -- jcj@tellabs.com "Hey, Mr. Peterson, there's a cold one waiting for you." "I know, and if she calls, I'm not here." Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sr3h+ From: sr3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Andrew Rahe) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 91 17:53:51 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 5 In-Reply-To: I also heard that Jimmy Carter reported seeing a UFO... of course, I also remember that he once said that he was attacked by a "killer" rabbit... (or something to that effect) Stephen Rahe Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty From: dusty@abode.ttank.com (Dusty Garza) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wht Strieber's books Message-ID: <1991Nov15.022304.481@abode.ttank.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 02:23:04 GMT References: <1991Nov7.172850.13588@cis.ohio-state.edu> <1991Nov7.235314.3719@javelin.sim.es.com> <30102@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Organization: Abode Computer Services Lines: 6 I just saw Hopkins on the Jenny Jones show (KNBC- Los Angeles) and he seems MUCH MORE CREDIBLE than Streiber. Just my two cents Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster From: foster@gdc.com (Sharon Foster) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <31876@gdc.com> Date: 12 Nov 91 15:23:01 GMT References: <1991Oct24.011754.13568@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct26.051403.18319@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17654 talk.religion.newage:7703 alt.atheism:17976 alt.alien.visitors:3085 In article <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU>, drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: > In article <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >>In article <1991Oct26.051403.18319@wpi.WPI.EDU> drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: >>> >>>Keep in mind that science is the study of the physical Universe, and that >>>religion is the study of everything else. >>> >>no sorry that is ART. Religeon is just the chains around humanities ankles >>in its struggle to pursue science(the study of the physical universe) and >>art (the study of everything else). > > Oh, please. I don't blame religion itself for all the scientific setbacks > that fanatically religious people have caused. Both science and religion > are searches for truth. Science searches for what is true about this physical > universe. Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical > one. Yes, maybe, but it *also* deals with, but is not limited to, the truths of living in *this* world. See .sig below. > They really shouldn't interfere with each other. I whole-heartedly agree. -- Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster /* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie * foster@gdc.com */ /* These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm). */ /* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the */ /* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial */ /* statement." - me */ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!sharkey!nstar!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> Date: 15 Nov 91 08:25:36 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17655 alt.alien.visitors:3086 In article <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > >I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in >office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody >provide any references? Yes. This is covered in Cecil Adams' _The Straight Dope_. On page 48, we find: Didn't Jimmy Carter once claim he had seen a UFO? Was he all by himself, or did other people see it too? Has there been any subsequent investigation? Was it a "real" UFO, or did Jimmy get snookered by swamp gas? - Rhoda A., Baltimore Cecil's answer is: Two guesses, kiddo. In a report filed with the Center for UFO Studies in Evanston, Illinois, Carter claimed to have seen his UFO in October, 1969, when he was running (unsuccessfully at that point) for governor of Georgia. Being a shrewd politician even then, he didn't file his report until September 1973 (hell, look what happened to Eagleton.) It was around 7:15, shortly after dark, when Carter and a group of about 10 or 12 people spotted the alleged UFO over the countryside near Leary, Georgia. The object stood still in the sky for a period of 10 or 12 minutes, slowly changing its color, size, and brightness, and then gradually retreated into the distance, disappearing from view. Carter estimated that the object, at its closest, was some 300 to 1,000 yards away. Later research, however, has cast grave doubts on the Big Peanut's credibility. Robert Sheaffer, a volunteer researcher for the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, reported in an issue of _Zetetic_ magazine that what Carter actually saw was not a flying saucer, but the planet Venus, a notorious trickster in these matters. Nor was the fateful eve in October -- apparently, during the four-year gap between the incident and Carter's report, the President confused his dates. By checking the files of the Lions Club chapter that Carter was scheduled to address that evening, Sheaffer discovered that the actual date was January 6, 1969 -- a night on which the planet would be sitting in precisely the spot where Carter saw his spaceship. Reference: _The Straight Dope_, Cecil Adams, Ballantine Books, 1986. ISBN 0-345-33315-2 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov15.202009.10427@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 15 Nov 91 20:20:09 GMT Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3087 alt.paranormal:3673 Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu In article <91318.12590734AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes: >In article , kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) >says: >> >>. >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? >> >You have the date wrong. > -- >The year was 1991, NOT 1992! > >All the Politically Correct people were saved in the Rapture. Good Riddance! -- ..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/ now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords... "The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ouzo From: ouzo@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Peter Petropoulos) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: more on the asteroid Message-ID: <1991Nov15.195312.17593@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> Date: 15 Nov 91 19:53:12 GMT References: <1991Nov13.234848.13953@pacdata.uucp> Organization: Academic Computing and Network Services, Evanston, Il. Lines: 9 By the way...have a look into the recent Scientific American issue.... A news item has NASA begging for money for asteroid-hits-earth watch... I smell consiracy here....maybe after all we snuff out come June 13th '92. I bet Benford had the same type of jets in mind when he named his Icarus in "In the Ocean of Night", great book + sequels so read it before our lights go out. Delphi Oracle at Large. Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> Date: 15 Nov 91 19:52:18 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 77 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17658 alt.alien.visitors:3089 In article <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) writes: >In article <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: >> >>I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in >>office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody >>provide any references? > >Yes. This is covered in Cecil Adams' _The Straight Dope_. >On page 48, we find: > >Didn't Jimmy Carter once claim he had seen a UFO? Was he all by himself, >or did other people see it too? Has there been any subsequent investigation? >Was it a "real" UFO, or did Jimmy get snookered by swamp gas? > - Rhoda A., Baltimore > >Cecil's answer is: > > Two guesses, kiddo. In a report filed with the Center for UFO Studies >in Evanston, Illinois, Carter claimed to have seen his UFO in October, 1969, >when he was running (unsuccessfully at that point) for governor of Georgia. >Being a shrewd politician even then, he didn't file his report until >September 1973 (hell, look what happened to Eagleton.) It was around 7:15, >shortly after dark, when Carter and a group of about 10 or 12 people spotted >the alleged UFO over the countryside near Leary, Georgia. The object stood >still in the sky for a period of 10 or 12 minutes, slowly changing its color, >size, and brightness, and then gradually retreated into the distance, >disappearing from view. Carter estimated that the object, at its closest, was >some 300 to 1,000 yards away. > Later research, however, has cast grave doubts on the Big Peanut's >credibility. Robert Sheaffer, a volunteer researcher for the Committee for >the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, reported in an >issue of _Zetetic_ magazine that what Carter actually saw was not a flying >saucer, but the planet Venus, a notorious trickster in these matters. Nor >was the fateful eve in October -- apparently, during the four-year gap between >the incident and Carter's report, the President confused his dates. By >checking the files of the Lions Club chapter that Carter was scheduled to >address that evening, Sheaffer discovered that the actual date was January 6, >1969 -- a night on which the planet would be sitting in precisely the spot >where Carter saw his spaceship. > >Reference: _The Straight Dope_, Cecil Adams, Ballantine Books, 1986. > ISBN 0-345-33315-2 I would tend to believe J.C.'s claims that what he saw was unidentifiable (that is, it was not Venus). I say this since J.C. was an engineer (and of course, engineers are infallible :^) ), and thus could be called a trained observer. An estimate of distance would only be made by him if there was reason to believe so. Venus would only be a point of light, even under extreme atmospheric conditions, thus any trained observer could not make distance estimations. I wonder if J.C. in his report gave an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at arm's length technique? The impact of the observation obviously made an impact on him. I, of course, have a skepticism that UFO's are extraterrestrial, but I will keep an open mind on this issue. However, I have seen time and time again how many UFO sitings by trained observers, where they give subtended angle information indicating that what they saw was definitely much larger than a point of light, is disregarded as being some planet by so-called experts. I can only conclude that Robert Sheaffer had an hidden motive since his conclusion appears to me to be dishonest (with the information given to me in the above posting). Just my $0.03 worth (inflation). Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (415) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (415) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado Message-ID: <1991Nov13.234429.12567@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 13 Nov 91 23:44:29 GMT References: <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 15 In-Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk's message of 13 Nov 91 09:31:52 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk writes: > that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. > It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, > but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there > was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before > the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. > Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction > of property close by? Flashes of light are often associated with plain old earthly tornados. I think it's from friction causing the air to get hot enough that the oxygen ignites. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Visitor Part1 Message-ID: <1991Nov14.170721.20035@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 14 Nov 91 17:07:21 GMT References: <1991Nov13.023224.4956@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 10 In-Reply-To: tom@kether.webo.dg.com's message of 13 Nov 91 17:06:10 Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In tom@kether.webo.dg.com writes: > Kathy> I give up. > > Probably a wise move. One cannot argue with a closed mind! > > Tom That's exactly the advice I would give to Ryk. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!lanl!cochiti.lanl.gov!jlg From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> Date: 15 Nov 91 22:29:28 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@beta.lanl.gov (Usenet News) Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17660 alt.alien.visitors:3092 In article <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM>, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: |> [...] I wonder if J.C. in his report gave |> an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at |> arm's length technique? The impact of the observation obviously made an |> impact on him. The subtended angle of an object tells you its distance _only_ if you know how large the object is! Since the object was reported as _unidentified_, one must assume that no such a-priori knowledge existed. So, the only way to judge distance was parallax. Since someone making a speech at the Lions Club rarely has the equipment available to make an accurate parallax measurement, I suspect his distance estimate was hot air. By the way, why do you assume engineers are trained observers? Most aren't. Even those that are will only be reliable witnesses to those things that were connected with their branch of engineering. I believe Carter would be a quite reliable witness to the pressure and/or temperature readings on a ship-born nuclear reactor. He was never trained as an aircraft spotter though. J. Giles Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john From: john@anasaz (John Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> Date: 14 Nov 91 21:01:26 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 41 Keywords: In article <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: ] ]In article , richh@cellar.org (RichHalbs) writes... ]>kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: ]> ]>> ... ]>> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S ]>> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? ]> ]>I heard. And I, quite frankly, am scared. ]> ]>RICHH ] ] ] Don't be. There are no asteroids heading for Earth. You have a ] better chance of being attacked by a shark in the middle of ] Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth. (and I do ] not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^)) Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does strike, it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is much larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or lighting, and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas. The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over a lifetime. The bad news is that it would be unlikely with current setups for there to be any warning or corrective action in the event that an asteroid was on a near-term collision with earth. Perhaps the Pleidians will tell us :-) -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado Message-ID: <1991Nov15.133641.12239@demon.co.uk> Date: 15 Nov 91 13:36:41 GMT Sender: news@demon.co.uk (C-News Owner) Reply-To: Codesmiths Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk Lines: 40 In-Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) > On radio1 in England this morning, a news item stated > that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. > It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, > but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there > was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before > the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. It was a village in Cambridgeshire. It's not the only sighting of blue flashes that night (early Wednesday morning). One was seen in Morpeth (North East England) at around 5:45 am. I personally saw 3 of them in the Newton Aycliffe area (also NE England). I was driving from Newcastle to Birmingham down the A1 & saw 3 of them, separated by abut 10 minutes (so about 5 - 10 miles) at around 3:30 - 4am. They were on the horizon, or beyond & looked like the flash of an electricity cable being blown down. Similar colour, but too long duration for lightning. Besides, the sky was clear & starlit, and the center of the flash appeared to be at ground level. Weather conditions were clear sky, winds in the 40mph region & heavy showers later. I checked with the electricity board - no cable damage reported in the NE area. > I'm baffled! Same here ! Any more reports of these lights ? Andy Dingley dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk +44 91 230 1695 Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!uflorida!traveler From: traveler@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado/'The purpose of our Earth"/(sigh) Stollman, again... Message-ID: <32793@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Date: 15 Nov 91 15:58:57 GMT Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Reply-To: traveler Organization: University of Florida (ufl.edu) Lines: 52 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Attention, Walter Pullen, Don Allen, and crew: please read my post from a dew days ago ("Gary Stollman"). It may help, though I doubt it. Gee, Don, why do you think these "Dracos" resemble the old science-fiction standard reptilian meanies (a la "V")? Could it be that YOU GUYS ARE EXTREMELY IMPRESSIONABLE!!?? This whole alien thingy is MODERN MYTHOLOGY, made-up stuff that caters to the particular anxieties, beliefs, etc. of the latter half of the 20th c. Try to realize this! This is not to say that there aren't genuine mysteries and weird things out there. I DO believe that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in anyone's philosophy. And I do not discount that there have been sightings of unidentified flying objects (please, let's not use that as a synonym for "alien spacecraft"). I was reminded of one of those marvelously inexplicable phenomena by the postings about tornados in Britain. Of course I'm talking about the good old crop circles! There's actually an excellent book on the subject by a couple of scientists who have investigated and photographed numerous sites. This is NOT a far out fringe type of book--the two authors take the very proper scientific position that the circles are absolutely beyond their powers of explanation, and and do not attempt to fill in the blanks with crazy theories about aliens or whatever. I know there was a recent expose about a couple of middle- aged pranksters who were making crop circles with some kind of gadget they carried around to different fields, but scientists are skeptical that these two could have done all the circles. They've appeared in very far-apart areas of the UK in very short periods (e.g. a single night), and have even been reported in other countries (though I don't know of any in the U.S.). Also, some of the circles were produced by incomprehensible methods which show no sign of human activity. Anyone know any more about this topic? I'm serious; I don't want you to tell me about how your friends from the Pleiades or Venus are doing it. --Max -------------------------------------------------------- The S.I.S. Fellowship--"Disciples of Progress Through Rebellion in the Field of Aesthetics." -------------------------------------------------------- Max Clarke The Traveler At UF -------------------------------------------------------- I disclaim all responsibility for this disclaimer. -------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gary Stollman Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 05:19:58 GMT References: <1991Nov13.041546.3977@descartes.waterloo.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 13 In article <1991Nov13.041546.3977@descartes.waterloo.edu> cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton) writes: > > I'm having a hard time trying to decide whether Gary Stollman is simply >a slightly bent person, or whether his posting is really strong satire. Let me assure you that Mr. Stollman isn't writing satire. I remember a newspaper article about his "appearance" on David Horowitz's show. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 05:37:29 GMT References: <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> <10301@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 29 In article <10301@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >|> About "a month ago", the police in St. Louis, Missouri, found a box >|> alongside the road "near Highway 100 and Deer Creek Road in West County". >|> Inside the box was a glass jar full of vinegar, and in the vinegar was the >|> "blob". It consists of four parts, of which one is a tentacle. It has no >|> bones or hair. > >"2 luminous disk like eyes appeared above the rim. A huge rounded bulk larger than a bear > rose up slowly, glistening like wet leather. It's lipless mouth quivered and slathered > and snake like tentacles writhed as the clumsy body heaved and pulsated." That's a bizarre coincidence (and I hope that's all it is!), Bill. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. If anybody in St. Louis has seen any green meteors, it's time to panic! But seriously, I haven't heard of any cylindrical objects being found in craters. Of course, it sounds like this thing was sitting around in somebody's house for a while until they decided to get rid of it for unknown reasons. It would be interesting to know how the police found it -- were they just taking an interest in roadside litter, or did someone tell them it was there? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gary Stollman Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 05:42:34 GMT References: <1991Nov13.041546.3977@descartes.waterloo.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 72 For what it's worth, here's "O. H. Krill"'s version of Gary Stollman's story. (All comments are Mr. "Krill"'s (Lear/Valerian?), not mine.) ----- Well, as if this weren't enough, let's examine the basic allegations that were raised by Gary Stollman when he held an empty BB gun to David Horowitz on KNBC Channel 4, Los Angeles, in October, 1987. Gary clearly though that he was alone in his knowledge, and evidently turned to desperation to have the public become aware of what he knew. For the sake of brevity, I will simply summarize the allegations, and make comments where I wish to do so: o His physical father is in fact a clone created by the CIA and alien forces. o Cloning is a part of a plot to overthrow the U.S government. o The CIA maintains mental-retraining hospitals. o Phones were turned off at Rohlman Psychiatric Hospital in Cincinnati for 48 hours after his arrival. o A former CIA official had an interview on KPFK radio in which he told a college audience that the CIA has towed barges across New York Harbor that were disease-ridden. o The CIA may have created the AIDS virus to wipe out the gay population. Comment: Hmmm, where have we heard THAT before? o The CIA assassinated John F. Kennedy and the 22 material witnesses who died with two years. Comment: Hmmmm, I have heard that as well. o He demands that the Air Force release all information on UFOs. o He demands that the information about Hanger 18 at Wright-Patterson [AFB] be released. o He relates that he spoke to a girl at Florida Junior College who told him that seven of her friends had been "replaced." o The CIA doesn't trust people on computers. o Individuals at the Optimist Boys School in Pasadena were recruited by others and given false IDs and birth certificates. o There is a secret group led by the President's own staff. o There are beings around with the power to teleport instantly and do the same to others; who can read and control minds, and transform matter into other forms and create it at will. o He asks for a congressional investigation and federal protection. o He states that he cannot harm anyone with an empty BB gun. **************************************************************** Well, what do you think? [Name deleted in original, replaced with the word "MUFON"] contacted Mr. Stollman's lawyer in December, 1987, and told him that some of what Gary had said may be true. His lawyer promptly made himself scarce. **************************************************************** ----- (Can anyone verify this last part?) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 91 05:48:25 GMT References: <1991Nov8.041853.4896@abode.ttank.com> <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 20 In article <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes: >If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it! I >suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the >end of their noon program too closely. It wasn't ABC's noon program, it was an ABC affiliate's noon program. I don't know how many other stations might have chosen to run that particular report from the network, but from the lack of online discussion about it I'd have to guess that either not very many did, or nobody with access to a computer network was watching. Don Ecker on Paranet has repeatedly said that it's impossible to get anyone to discuss the subject of human mutilations. You seem to think the two subjects are linked. What is the connection? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: the Blob revisited Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 91 04:17:10 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 Jim Delton on Paranet says that he saw a TV news report in which a woman claimed that the St. Louis mystery organism was a fungus she had been growing. She says she threw it out when it got too big. Although a fungus would explain the lack of recognizable animal features (though I don't know about the "tentacle"), I'm puzzled as to why she would put it in a jar of vinegar, put the jar in a box, and leave it by the side of the road. Why not put it in the garbage, or bury it, or something? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado Message-ID: <1991Nov15.225440.3830noring@netcom.COM> Date: 15 Nov 91 22:54:40 GMT References: <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> <1991Nov13.234429.12567@javelin.sim.es.com> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 36 In article <1991Nov13.234429.12567@javelin.sim.es.com> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes: >In <1991Nov13.093152.10620@tcom.stc.co.uk> fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk writes: > >> that several houses had their roofs destroyed by a tornado. >> It wasn't clear whether it was a strong wind or a jet fighter, >> but what was wierd was that eye witnesses stated that there >> was a brilliant blue light high up in the sky shortly before >> the destruction took place. Somewhere in Essex I believe. > >> Has anyone ever heard of blue lights in the sky with destruction >> of property close by? > > > Flashes of light are often associated with plain old earthly tornados. I >think it's from friction causing the air to get hot enough that the oxygen >ignites. > I remember reading an article about a tornado that went directly overhead some people. They were able to look directly inside the vortex and they described the inside as glowing blue with occasional flashes of lightning. It would be kind of eerie to see that. Jon -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (415) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (415) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> Date: 15 Nov 91 23:21:53 GMT References: <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 57 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17667 alt.alien.visitors:3102 In article <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) writes: >In article <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM>, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: >|> [...] I wonder if J.C. in his report gave >|> an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at >|> arm's length technique? The impact of the observation obviously made an >|> impact on him. > >The subtended angle of an object tells you its distance _only_ if >you know how large the object is! Since the object was reported >as _unidentified_, one must assume that no such a-priori knowledge >existed. So, the only way to judge distance was parallax. Since >someone making a speech at the Lions Club rarely has the equipment >available to make an accurate parallax measurement, I suspect his >distance estimate was hot air. > >By the way, why do you assume engineers are trained observers? >Most aren't. Even those that are will only be reliable witnesses >to those things that were connected with their branch of engineering. >I believe Carter would be a quite reliable witness to the pressure >and/or temperature readings on a ship-born nuclear reactor. He was >never trained as an aircraft spotter though. > >J. Giles Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind. You are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know the distance to an object. But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what caused J.C. to take notice. If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it (using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions mentioned above). IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden agenda or motivation for using this explanation. And just to reiterate my beliefs: I don't know if some or all UFO sitings are due to extraterrestrial spacecraft, but I have not come to the conclusion that there must be a terrestrial explanation for every sighting. Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (415) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (415) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!ukma!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 15 Nov 91 20:59:30 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17677 alt.alien.visitors:3103 pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in > office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody > provide any references? > > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > \ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ pullen@lynx.cs.washington.edu \ / \ / \ > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Robert Sheaffer of CSICOP checked into it-- said it was probably the planet Venus. Might want to contact him through CSICOP in Buffalo, NY, although Sheaffer lives in San Francisco. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 16 Nov 91 08:09:09 GMT References: <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 47 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17681 alt.alien.visitors:3104 In article <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be >called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer >could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances >except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind. You >are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know >the distance to an object. But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends >saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what >caused J.C. to take notice. > >If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it >(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a >planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions >mentioned above). IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused >and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion >that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden >agenda or motivation for using this explanation. > >And just to reiterate my beliefs: I don't know if some or all UFO sitings >are due to extraterrestrial spacecraft, but I have not come to the >conclusion that there must be a terrestrial explanation for every sighting. Have you ever looked at a really bright planet? At times, Venus has an apparent magnitude of -4 or so. I can attest, from personal experience, that when an object in the sky is that bright, it doesn't appear to be a point of light. As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer), and a licensed pilot, I think I meet your criteria for a "trained observer." I remember one evening when I lived in Washington, DC, I went to a local park to observe Mercury and Venus about 45 minutes after sunset. I was on a hillside, facing west, that was directly lined up with part of the final approach course for aircraft landing at Washington National Airport. There were scattered clouds in the west that occasionally obscured Venus and Mercury, and at one point I was sure I was seeing Venus until the bright light I was watching turned and started moving off to the south. At that point, I realized I was watching an airliner with its landing lights on. Both planets later became visible, and I found that without binoculars, it was very difficult to distinguish between Venus and aircraft landing lights, unless you knew exactly where Venus was in the sky. I don't automatically assume every UFO report is due to some well-known terrestrial explanation either. On the other hand, I've seen Venus when it doesn't look much like the sort of thing one would normally see in the sky, and I can easily imagine someone who isn't very familiar with astronomy seeing a _very bright_ light near the horizon and assuming that it couldn't possibly be a star or planet. "trained engineer." Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!gdc!foster From: foster@gdc.com (Sharon Foster) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <31953@gdc.com> Date: 13 Nov 91 09:49:07 GMT References: <1991Oct24.011754.13568@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct26.051403.18319@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov10.235155.7102@disk.uucp> Organization: General DataComm, Middlebury CT Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17682 talk.religion.newage:7708 alt.atheism:18014 alt.alien.visitors:3105 > > A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up -- > when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a > hoax. Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to scientific ideas. Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth. -- Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster /* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie * foster@gdc.com */ /* These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm). */ /* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the */ /* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial */ /* statement." - me */ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtx!al From: al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1713@gtx.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 22:41:12 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> Reply-To: al@gtx.UUCP (Alan Filipski) Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3106 alt.paranormal:3677 In article <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: #>In article kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: #> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S #>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? # #Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all. #It's supposed to orbit the Earth. It's an orbiting Master Space Station #and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade #agreements. # # Mary Stanley Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA ) ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver From: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> Date: 16 Nov 91 17:21:11 GMT References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose) Reply-To: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 63 >In article <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: >] >]In article , richh@cellar.org (RichHalbs) writes... >]>kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >]> >]>> ... >]>> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >]>> SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? >]> >]>I heard. And I, quite frankly, am scared. >]> >]>RICHH >] >] >] Don't be. There are no asteroids heading for Earth. You have a >] better chance of being attacked by a shark in the middle of >] Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth. (and I do >] not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^)) >Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime >is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been >studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does strike, >it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is much >larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or lighting, >and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by >a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas. > >The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over a >lifetime. > >The bad news is that it would be unlikely with current setups for there >to be any warning or corrective action in the event that an asteroid >was on a near-term collision with earth. > >Perhaps the Pleidians will tell us :-) >-- Wait a second! Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are 1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid? So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths! Actually, I'm being somewhat facetious, but maybe the odds should actually be rather lower, or that there are some other conditions for asteroid-dying that John Moore didn't mention! BTW - sometime back on alt.alien.visitors there was a thread about a person who was actually struck by a meteorite, anybody remember the details? BTW part two - What are the chances of getting killed by a seagoing lawyer (shark variety) in the Pleiedes (sp) ? What are the odds compared with Kansas? :) Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov16.182812.598@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:01:46 GMT References: <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu Distribution: na Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana Lines: 97 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17685 alt.alien.visitors:3108 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu In article <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM>, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes... >If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it >(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a >planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions >mentioned above). IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused >and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion >that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden >agenda or motivation for using this explanation. > I agree! I don't think there's a hidden agenda though. I think most of it is a deliberate attempt at remaing ignorant about whats really going on, either from lack of interest or just plain armchair laziness. I think it would be interesting to know just how many self-proclaimed skeptics have actually been fooled by their own straw-man arguments. For example, if it's that easy to be fooled into believing that a point source of light (such as VENUS) can be mistaken for an object _with visible physical dimension_, then I would expect many skeptics including perhaps those that call themselves such on this group to have been fooled as well. I consider myself a skeptic (a true one, not a religious debunker). I have personally been fooled by a point light source. But, at no time did I think that what I saw had shape and dimension. I knew when I was looking at it that it was not resolvable. I was looking at a bright light beyond and at the top of a distant tree line, in the late Fall, on a slighty breezy night. The light literally appeared to "dance" up and down, left and right, skipping and hopping across the top of the trees. After observing for 5 minutes or so (trying to explain it, of course), I finally realized that the wind was moving the tree limbs back and forth in front of the light. Only after realizing this was I able to verify that this was the case by choosing a fixed reference point and watching the light. No movement then, even though the limbs were still swaying. The point is that at no time did I even THINK that what I was seeing had any physical dimension or shape. It LOOKED like a dancing star and nothing more. So, if point sources of light (primarily the tiresome VENUS) are reported as physical objects that often, why aren't they reported as dancing stars or dancing planets rather than space ships? Are there really that many professional people telling us lies about ufo's? There is nothing unique about the skeptic's powers of observation over those of the thousands of people who report sightings (after all, many of those are professionals). Besides, whether Carter is right about the size, based on "subtended angle" or whatever, is totally irrelevant. What _is_ relevant is that if someone reports visible physical dimension and shape, then it's a fair bet that the straw-man "VENUS" argument is crap. To some skeptics, seeing isn't believing. We can all be "fooled" by our senses. Even in large numbers and at the same time. So I wonder how some of them may ever be convinced by their own cries for "objective" evidence. Sadly, the only "evidence" that many of them will accept is evidence of a _repeatable_ nature. Well, that's fine if you're carrying out scientific experiments to confirm the _experimental claims_ of others. The problem with that is that evidence of a non-repeatable nature _does_ exist, and by its very nature, is not often subject to scrutiny by self-made experts. What many of them fail to understand is that even "objectivity" is "relative". In other words, regardless of what one experiences with the five senses, even in large groups, one can accept or deny it, period. The self-made skeptic is especially guilty of this. For example, let's say it is shown by several people directly involved in investigating something that there is "compelling evidence" that further scientific investigation is needed. Too many times (at least in this newsgroup), the response has been: "Compelling to whom? Certainly not me." Like I said, we believe what we _choose_ to believe, evidence (in any form) notwithstanding. >Jon Noring Jim Graham -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <- Neither do they speak for me. ______________________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!jgraham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) | | (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |______________________________________________________________________| Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <1991Nov16.185854.1873@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:56:06 GMT References: <1991Oct24.011754.13568@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct26.051403.18319@wpi.WPI.EDU> <31953@gdc.com> Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu Distribution: na Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana Lines: 35 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17687 talk.religion.newage:7709 alt.atheism:18020 alt.alien.visitors:3109 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu In article <31953@gdc.com>, foster@gdc.com (Sharon Foster) writes... >> >> A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up -- >> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a >> hoax. > > >Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about >as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to >scientific ideas. > >Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth. > >-- >Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But....BUT....I thought liberals were atheists! Shoot. Just joking.... Non-liberal, non-conservative....Jim (I refuse to be labeled) Graham. -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <- Neither do they speak for me. ______________________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!jgraham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) | | (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |______________________________________________________________________| Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202345.15415@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:23:45 GMT References: <4673@shodha.enet.dec.com> <1991Nov14.010133@IASTATE.EDU> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 15 In-Reply-To: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU's message of Thu, 14 Nov 1991 07:01:33 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Nov14.010133@IASTATE.EDU> sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU writes: > > This is a VERY paranoid file. > > > * Yes, perhaps it is; you may be right to a degree. However, this is > alt.alien.visitors, not alt.just.the.facts. I believe it's okay to speculate > on possibilities and express your own view of reality. Or am I wrong? * > > * an amateur astronomer * There's nothing wrong with speculating, but presenting wildly innacurate facts about nonexistent scientific discoveries should be considered a no-no. * another amateur astronomer * Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov16.215126.16045@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 16 Nov 91 21:51:26 GMT References: <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 29 In-Reply-To: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com's message of 14 Nov 91 13:42:23 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com writes: > > >I heard. And I, quite frankly, am scared. > > > >RICHH > > > Don't be. There are no asteroids heading for Earth. You have a > better chance of being attacked by a shark in the middle of > Kansas than being killed by an asteroid hitting Earth. (and I do > not be SHARK as in Lawyer 8^)) > > Steve Although the asteroid being dicussed is a myth, the danger of an asteroid striking the earth is not nonexistent. In 1989 a small (and previously uncharted asteroid) came withing about 1 million miles (4 x the distance of the moon) and last year a smaller one passed between the Earth and Moon. There are an estimated 10,000 yet uncharted asteroids in orbits that cross the Earth's. If you look at the number of people on the planet and the destructiveness of plane wrecks as compared to this estimate of asteroid numbers and the casualties that would result if one struck the earth, you'll find that the odds are six times higher that any one person will die from an asteroid collision than from a plane crash. That sounds pretty horrifying until you consider how many people on the earth actually travel by air. Even so, this year the first international conference was held to determine what (if any) defensive actions could be taken in the event of an encounter with an asteroid. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> Date: 16 Nov 91 22:19:14 GMT References: <1991Oct28.183128.5349@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17688 alt.paranormal:3678 alt.alien.visitors:3112 talk.religion.newage:7710 In article <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: > Hmmm. India clearly can make fission weapons, but as far as I >know, they have not exploded a fusion device. In the absense of such >a fusion bomb test, how can Inda have killed people with them? Ditto >for covert members of the nuclear club, like Israel and South >Africa. Whoops, I was wrong in making the assumption that a country that develops fission weapons, would naturally go onto developing fusion weapons as well. Which countries have developed fusion weapons, aside from the US and the USSR? The deaths I was refering to would have been from directly nuclear related effects, either from manufacture or detonation. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction Message-ID: <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:34:50 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 91 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3113 alt.conspiracy:8609 sci.skeptic:17689 ======================================================================== ** Gulfbreeze Introduction ** ======================================================================== The following articles are part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's . I know of no other case in UFOlogy that has been debated/contested as much as this one has. Much of the debate centers around "Mr Ed", Ed Walters and the swirls of controversy over his photos. There have been cries of "HOAX!" ever since this case made the headlines a few years ago, and this was only exacerbated even further when Ed wrote his book. Much of the debate centers over the infamous "road shot" that appears in this book and the tug of war between the various UFO groups still continues to this day. To date, there has not been any established or absolute conclusive PROOF as to the hoax claims, though there has been quite a few theories advanced. What makes Ed's claims the more difficult to accept by many is that he has been the ONLY one who has photographed the UFO(s) in great detail, where others have only managed to get "red blobs" in their pics. Having followed this for a few years now..it is still NO closer to being resolved. I think I could safely say that the ParaNet UFO organization and CUFOS have rated Ed Walters as probable hoax. MUFON on the other hand, has stood behind the Walters case all the way. Here's a partial list of characters so you will understand who the principles are: Ed Walters - The _center_ of the controversy.He took the photos and wrote the book, "The Gulf Breeze Sightings". Bob Oechsler - Investigator/reporter. Donald Ware - Florida state MUFON director. Investigator. Carol and Rex Salisberry - (former) State Section Directors for Pensacola MUFON. Investigators. Dr. Bruce Maccabee - Optical physicist for the US Navy and MUFON State Director for Maryland. Principle photo analyst for MUFON. Duane Cook - Editor of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel. Willy Smith - Claims that Ed made the models and hoaxed the photos. Got nailed in a "sting" by Antonio Huneeus and Manuel Fernandez and was later dis-credited. - Others mentioned in articles on the BBS side - John Hicks - Currently is the FIDO_UFO moderator and owner of a camera business. Knows his optics pretty well and has done some investigation in his own right in the Gulfbreeze area. Jim Speiser - The guy I like to refer as the "curmudgeon of ParaNet" :-) He's asked the hard questions and brought up several inconsistencies of the whole affair on ParaNet. In this case, he is very much a skeptic. Unfortunately, this case has also caused much division in UFOlogy with the extremes of positions. It's quite probable that there has been some dis-information involved as well. There seems to be two issues here...one regarding sightings and photos by Ed Walters and the other involving witnessed sightings _without_ Ed Walters. In the latter case, there has been quite a lot of those. These sightings are *still* going on today. Some have speculated that the recent skyquakes in the Gulfbreeze/Tampa area may be associated with UFO's. Who knows...if you're ever down in the panhandle of Florida and have some time to spend..you just might be able to witness this phenomenon for yourself. Bring a good camera or vidcam and do NOT trust the autofocus, but learn to do it manually and you'll get good pictures. Since there are quite a lot of these files, I would suggest that you save them when they hit your system as I don't plan on re-posting them again. This is a one time shot. There's going to be about 38 files altogether totalling around 290K. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 1/30/89 Gulf Breeze UFO Update. Message-ID: <1991Nov16.193639.10814@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:36:39 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 53 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3114 alt.conspiracy:8610 sci.skeptic:17690 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- 1238 01-30-89 12:11 aes Researchers say photos show UFO GULF BREEZE, Fla. (UPI) _ UFO experts are debating the authenticity of photographs of an eerie cylindrical object glowing in the night sky over the Florida Panhandle town of Gulf Breeze. More than 135 residents in the past 18 months have reported seeing a strange craft hovering in skies over Gulf Breeze, the Tampa Tribune reported Sunday. One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed," has produced photographs showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may be windows. The pictures have sparked a battle between two UFO investigating groups. The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. The Center for UFO Studies, a non-profit group founded by the late astronomer J. Allen Hynek, does not. The network cites a 90-page study by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee, who says Ed could not have fabricated such convincing photographs. "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this," he said. The center relies on its researchers and on Robert Nathan, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He said the photos show glaring inconsistencies typical of double exposures. Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the case has "deteriorated into a shouting match" between the two groups, and that the network's endorsement of the pictures biased Maccabee's study. "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of serious UFO researchers think (the) Gulf Breeze (case) is a hoax," Rodeghier said. But residents of the town of 6,000 think they know what they saw. "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member who claimed to see a large, lighted craft twice in one night last spring over Pensacola Bay. "I can tell you now _ for every one person who has reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want anyone to know." ============================================================================ -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: UPI Article Gulf Breeze, Fla UFO Message-ID: <1991Nov16.193811.10902@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:38:11 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 101 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3115 alt.conspiracy:8611 sci.skeptic:17691 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE DATE OF ARTICLE: January 30, 1989 SOURCE OF ARTICLE: NEWS LOCATION: PARKERSBURG, WV BYLINE: NONE (UPI) ======================================================== THIS FILE WAS PROVIDED BY THE UFO NEWSCLIPPING SERVICE AND PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION SERVICE ======================================================== LOOK, UP IN THE SKY ... FLORIDANS SURE PHOTOS PROVE ... UFOS VISITING PANHANDLE AREA Gulf Breeze, FLA. (UPI) -- Photographs of an eerily lit cylindrical object drifting through the night sky have scientists debating whether unidentified flying objects are visiting the Florida Panhandle. More than 135 Gulf Breeze's 6,000 residents have reported seeing a strange craft hovering in the skies over the past one and a half years, the Tampa Tribune reported Sunday. One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed" to protect his anonymity, has produced startling photographs of the alleged UFO. Those pictures, showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may be windows, lie at the heart of a simmering battle between two UFO investigating groups. The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. But the Center for UFO Studies, a non-profit group found by the late astronomer, J. Allen Hynek, does not. The network cites a 90-page study done by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee. Maccabee said Ed could not have made such perfect fakes, and that the pictures are real. "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this," he said. Maccabee also cites circumstantial evidence in Ed's favor, including sightings by others who described UFOs identical to those in Ed's photos. The center relies on its own researchers and on Robert Nathan of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Nathan, who conceded he had not studied the pictures as completely as did Maccabee, said the photos show glaring inconsistencies typical of double exposures. Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the Gulf Breeze case had "deteriorated into a shouting match" because his group was forced to play devil's advocate when the network endorsed the pictures. That endorsement biased Maccabee's study, he said. "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of serious UFO researchers think Gulf Breeze is a hoax," Rodeghier said. For many Gulf Breeze residents, what the experts think is beside the point -- they know what they saw. "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member who said she saw a large, lighted craft twice in one night in spring of 1988. Ms. Pollak said she watched the craft hover over Pensacola Bay while, unknown to her, Ed shot pictures of the UFO from only a few blocks away. "I can tell you now -- for every one person who has reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want anyone to know," Ms. Pollack said. "I'm not saying that I believe it's from another planet, but it's something I had never laid eyes on in my life," added Shirley McConnell. Mrs. McConnell and her husband, who is the medical examiner for Florida's District 1, say that last June the craft hovered within 75 yards of their house for nearly four minutes before drifting off. "People can say whatever they want about me, but I know what I saw. Ed didn't make this up," Mrs. McConnell said. ================================================================= -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Interim Report - Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry Message-ID: <1991Nov16.194142.10992@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:41:42 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 273 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3116 alt.conspiracy:8612 sci.skeptic:17692 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- From: Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry 23 September 1990 Navarre Beach, Fl. 32566-7235 To: Walter H. Andrus, Jr. 103 Oldtowne Road Sequin, Tx 78155-4099 Subject: Interim Report on the reopening of the Walters' UFO Case Background: The investigators, Carol & Rex Salisberry had not been involved with the prior investigation of the Walter's Case and had accepted the MUFON assessment of its validity without close personal scrutiny. When Tommy Smith came forward with his allegations on 15 June 1990, the investigators doubted them and, in fact made several public statements in support of the Walter's Case. After the press conferences on 19 June 1990, wherein Mr. Charles Flannigan ( Florida MUFON State Director) announced the reopening of the Walters' Case and the commitment by MUFON to finding the truth, we were asked by Mr. Flannigan to assist him in the next phase of the investigation. During a meeting of Mr. Walter Andrus, MUFON International Director, Mr. Flannigan, and Mr. Salisberry on Thursday 5 July 1990, Mr. Andrus expressed his capacity to accept the result that the Walter's Case was a total fraud if that was proven to be the case. We deemed this to be a critical commitment on his part , because we didn't want the results of our work to " be swept under the rug" if they were contrary to the then prevailing views of many MUFON officials and others. Upon receiving this commitment from Mr. Andrus we proceeded with the investigation with an open mind and with the greatest degree of objectivity that we could muster. Our previous, personal supportive views of the case had to be subjugated so as not to influence the fact finding process. Tentative Conclusions: Although there is much work remaining to be done in the investigation of this case, we have arrived at result that we deem should be brought to the attention of MUFON before it is uncovered and released to the public by outside interests. On 9 September 1990, our analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' case indicated a very high probability that the reflection on the road could not have been made by an object hovering over the road as described by Mr. Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual physical impossibility for the reflection to occur as depicted in Photo 19. Perhaps one of the easiest methods of producing the photo is by use of a small model (photographed at close range) and double exposure techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. Mr. Curtis and his associate, a biologist and model maker, have been harshly criticized by their critics. We were allowed to witness their effort and know that their intent was to demonstrate that the process was feasible and their purpose was not to duplicate the Walters' photo. (It is interesting that they too introduced the fatal flaw of creating a reflection which was not possible under the circumstances.) The detailed account of our analysis of Photo 19 is shown in Attachment 1. Mr. Flannigan and Mr. Salisberry telephoned Mr. Andrus on Sunday evening 9 September 1990 to inform him of the results of the analysis. During the conversation it was suggested that two independent experts be contacted to confirm the validity of our analysis. Those two experts were provided the details of the analysis and have orally responded with their confirmations of the validity of the results. With Photo 19 shown to be a probable hoax, Photo 14 is likewise categorized since it is essentially identical to Photo 19 except for geographic location. With these two photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos which depict an image of the same model should be considered as highly suspect. Intellectual and scientific integrity then dictate that the suspect photos be downgraded in the overall assessment of the validity of the case. Another aspect of the Walters' case which has come into question is whether or not he knew how to take double exposures prior to 11 November 1987. Mr. S. Peter Neumann, of WEAR TV and a resident of Gulf Breeze, has informed us that Mr. Walters had told him and his wife much earlier than 11 November 1987 that Walters sometimes used double exposure photography to amuse the young people who attended the parties in the Walters' home. Mr. Neumann has declined to provide us with a written and signed statement to this effect, but indicated that he would provide the same information to anyone calling by telephone. Additionally, the young people whom we have interviewed relate that Mr. Walters consistently "had a camera in his hand" at the various activities at which he was present. These young people also confirmed that Mr. Walters sometimes took what appeared to be trick photos and that they could not understand how it was done. Discussion: It is emphasized that the reassessment of the Walters' Case should not be cause to believe or disbelieve the hundreds of other UFO related experiences in the Pensacola area. Each reported case had been evaluated on its own merits and should stand as reported. It is even quite probable that the Walters family have had experiences with UFO related phenomena; however, this is difficult to assess at this point because of the previous preoccupation with the photos which may have distorted the data. Recommendation: MUFON should release the results of our analysis to the public as soon as practical. We consider this important to maintain our integrity as an objective UFO investigative organization. Attachment One Preliminary Analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' UFO Case made by Rex C. Salisberry on 9 September 1990. ASSUMPTIONS: (1) The object and the light ring at the bottom are circular (source - Mccabee, 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings). (2) The distance from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5) feet (source - Maccabee, page 145 of 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings) (3) The diameter of the light ring at the bottom is 7.5 feet (source - Maccabee, same as #2). (4) The tilt of the object away from the observer is about 13 degrees ( source - Dr. Willy Smith, page 14 of his " The Gulf Breeze Saga") (5) The height of the object above the road is about 3 feet (source - Maccabee, same as #2). (6) The height of the camera was about 5 feet. (7) The reflection on the Flat and relatively level road should have a round or slightly oval shape. Regardless of the shape of the reflection, since the cross dimension of the light is roughly equal to the cross dimension of the reflection, fore-and-aft dimensions of the light and the reflection should also correspond. APPROACH: It seemed to be a prudent scientific approach to determine what the reflection should appear to be under the given assumptions and then compare that result with the photograph. ANALYSIS: (1) Since the three-dimensional appearance of the reflection is converted to two dimensions on film, the two dimensional presentation to the camera should be determined. The horizontal presentation is unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, however the height and depth presentations are converted to a vertical only presentation as follows: 5ft-> | |90__________> (Angle A ) 185ft Angle A = arctan 5/185 = arctan (0.027027) = 1.54815 degrees The fore-and-aft dimension (x,) of the reflection on the road is given by ^ <-7.5ft /90 /_____________13 degrees x, x, = (7.5 feet)/(cosine 13 degrees)= 7.6972813 feet The vertical dimension (y,) as it would appear to the camera is then given by | 5ft | ^y, | | |90_______________7.6972813______>Angle A = 1.54815 185ft y, = ( 7.6972813 feet)( sin 1.54815 deg.) = 0.2979574 feet = 2.49549 inches. (2) Computation of the comparable vertical dimension from the photo facing page 129 of Walter's book is as follows: The ratio of the vertical dimension to the horizontal dimension is approximately 1 to 4 as measured on the photograph. Then by proportion Yz / 7.6972813 feet = 1/4 Yz = (7.6972813feet)/4 = 1.9243203 feet which is over 9 times greater than the expected value computed in (1) (3) If the road surface was sloped up abruptly below the object at an angle of about 14 degrees, the presentation of the reflection as shown on Photo 19 could have been attained. . | . |1.9243203 feet . | Angle B <________________90| 7.6972813 feet Angle B = arctan (1.9243203)/(7.7972813)= 14 degrees (This computation is not precise but is a close enough approximation upon which to draw a conclusion.) Since the road is known to not have a 14 degree slope at the point indicated in the photo, this possibility is ruled out. However, a similar reflection to the one shown in Photo 19 was produced by Mark Curtis for WEAR TV which indicates that the reflection could have been made by using a small model and double-exposure camera techniques. Mr. Curtis and his associate made the mistake of slanting the top of their light pipe and then covering it with thin paper to create the image for reflection. The fatal flaw produced a similar " fat " reflection as the one shown in Photo 19. (4) It is possible that the camera elevation could have been higher than the 5 feet assumed, so the camera elevation needed to produce the photo image of the reflection is roughly calculated by using a proportion as follows: | Y3 | |< 1.9243203 feet | | |_________|____________________ 7.6972813 feet |<.............185 feet.......>| Y3/185 feet = 1.9243203 feet/7.6972813 feet Y3 = (1.9243203) (185 feet)/7.6972813 = 46.25 feet Visual inspection of photo 19 indicates that a camera elevation of 46.25 feet was not possible. (5) It could also be argued that the fore-and-aft dimension of the reflection on the road could have been greater than the approximate 7.7 feet calculated in (1) above. Therefore a calculation of the fore-and-aft dimension needed to produce the reflection of Photo 19 is as follows: | . 5 ft | | <1.9243203 feet |90........|.....X2....... |> 185ft <| X2 = (185) ( 1.9243203feet)/5 = 71.2 feet Again, a visual inspection of Photo 19 rules out this possibility. (6) Other arguments could be offered, e.g. heat from the bottom of the UFO heated the wet road which caused steam to rise. The reflection on the water droplets in the steam would then cause the reflection to appear " fatter " than expected. Such arguments employ circular logic and hence must be discounted. Additional, the case file does not contain any evidence to indicate that the road was subjected to heat. (7) Anyone can perform a simple demonstration to convince himself of the validity of the above analysis. Construct a model of the scene using a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot as follows: (1) Cut a 7.5 inch diameter circle from a piece of white paper. (2) Place the 7.5 inch circular piece of paper on a flat surface to represent the reflection on the road. (3) Move away 185 inches to simulate the distance from the camera to the object. (4) View the circle from an elevation of 5 inches above the elevation of the circle as shown below ( You can cut a peep hole 5 inches above the bottom edge of a piece of cardboard to help in setting the proper height above the circle of paper): (Eye)>| |5 inches |____________________________()7.5inch white disc 185 inches One can then easily see that the circle appears as a thin line and not as the "fat" reflection shown in Photo 19 Conclusions: It is virtually impossible that the object as described in Walter's book and Maccabee's analyses could have caused the reflection as shown in Photo 19. A small model and double exposure camera techniques could have been used to produce the reflection as described in (3) above. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: And More Latest News Of Gulf Breeze Message-ID: <1991Nov16.194401.11062@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:44:01 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 113 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3117 alt.conspiracy:8613 sci.skeptic:17693 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Message number 868 in "MUFONET" Date: 10-30-90 09:11 From: John Hicks To: all Subj: ED WALTERS NEWS ARTICLE PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1990 .............................. INVESTIGATORS DOUBT UFO AUTHOR BY CRAIG MYERS NEWS JOURNAL .............................. Two investigators for the MUTUAL UFO Network said Friday they believe Gulf Breeze author Ed. Walters faked some of the photos of UFOs that appear in his book. " We believe that UFOs exist," said Rex and Carol Salisberry of Navarre of their study of several of Walter's photos. " We entered this investigation with a natural and favorable bias toward the Walter's case, " but " our investigation and analysis lend to the conclusion that several, if not all of the photos are probable hoaxes." Walters, who co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings" with his wife Frances, maintains the photos are real and that they were taken during numerous encounters between November 1987 and March 1988. Walters has appeared on numerous radio and television shows, including " Unsolved Mysteries " and the Oprah Winfrey Show, to recount his experiences with UFOs. He was reported to be out of town Friday and could not be reached for comment. In July the couple was named " Investigators of the Year " at a MUFON Symposium in Pensacola. Walt Andrus, MUFON's international director, said Friday that his organization is not yet ready to give its stamp of approval to the Salisberry's four month investigation of the photos. " I don't know how they arrived at that decision." Andrus said from his office in Sequin, Texas. " It is certainly premature. He has no business talking to reporters. It has never been cleared through here. He can't make representations for the organizations." Andrus, who has for two years endorsed the Walters case, appointed Salisberry in July to take a second look at the case after questions surfaced about the credibility of Walter's photos. The first question arose after a model was found in the Walter's former residence in Gulf Breeze in March. The Styrofoam and drafting paper model was found in the attic of the home and strongly resembled a drawing Walter's made of one of his UFO sightings. The second question arose when Tommy Smith, formerly of Gulf Breeze, said in July that he witnessed Walter's fake UFO photos. Smith said Walters asked him to take some faked UFO photos to the Gulf Breeze newspaper and claim they were real. But Andrus on Friday said Smith is lying and the UFO model was hidden in the attic by someone who wants to discredit Walters. "Tommy Smith can't prove any of his statements- they are outlandish lies," Andrus said. The Salisberrys said Smith's testimony and the model contributed to their conclusion, but more convincing was an analysis of Walter's so-called " road shot " that shows a UFO hovering over a road. Salisberry said the reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not match the round light source on the bottom of the craft, he said. The Salisberrys said the photo and a second photo probably was created by a double-exposure-- a process by which a model is photographed and the image is exposed again onto the same frame of film. " With these photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos... should be considered as highly suspect, " Salisberry wrote in the preliminary report. Seven MUFON members investigated the sightings in 1988 and concluded Walter's story was true. The Salisberrys were not among the original investigators, but joined MUFON in November 1988. Andrus said that while the Salisberrys are good investigators, they cannot yet speak for MUFON. " They ( the Salisberrys ) do not have grounds to arrive at that conclusion until it is submitted to us. We will have to look at their facts," Andrus said. The Salisberrys have not yet submitted their report to MUFON. Phil Klass, a contributing editor to Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine and a longtime Walters critic, said Andrus is too " proud and stubborn " to accept the report. " I think the Salisberrys should be commended for being willing to change their earlier opinion," said Klass. But Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photographic analyst who has defended Walter's photos. said the road reflection does not discredit the photo. Maccabee said his analysis of the photo shows light from beneath the object was projected at an angle-like car headlights shinning ahead of a car on a wet road. Maccabee said Friday he still is open-minded about the Walter's sightings, but said it would take more convincing evidence than Salisberry's report to convince him of a hoax. " Nothing I have seen has changed my mind," Maccabee said. Salisberry said his conclusion on Walters' photo does not shake his own belief in UFOs. And he said his report won't end the Walters' debate. " The problem with Walters' story isn't a UFO problem, it is a human problem". Salisberry said. " If the Walters' case is typical of most UFO cases, the debate will probably go on for years in spite of any evidence pro or con." ****************************************************************************** --- via Quickpoint XRS 3.2- (286) * Origin: UFINET//PARANET//MUFONET (407)649-4136 (1:363/29) -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 10/30/90 News-Journal Ed Walters Message-ID: <1991Nov16.194744.11132@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:47:44 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 76 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3118 alt.conspiracy:8614 sci.skeptic:17694 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- ************************************************************** UFO REPORT POLITICAL, OFFICIAL SAYS By Craig Myers NEWS JOURNAL (TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990) ************************************************************** A report that Gulf Breeze resident Ed Walters may have faked photographs of UFOs is designed to hurt Walters' campaign for city council, a Mutual UFO Network official said Monday. Dan Wright, who heads UFO investigations for MUFON, said Monday the organization is " concerned that one of our investigators may have taken sides in a political dispute." Walters co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings," which recounts encounters he claims to have had with UFOs between November 1987 and March 1988. He is a candidate for City Council in Gulf Breeze on the Nov. 6 ballot. Walters would not comment Monday, but said earlier this month that his alleged UFO encounters were not an issue in the campaign. The issue resurfaced Friday after Rex and Carol Salisberry, investigators for the UFO network, released a summary of a preliminary report that said Walters likely faked at least two photographs reproduced in his book. The Salisberrys, MUFON investigators of the year in 1989-1990, were asked in July to reopen the case. The new probe was prompted by the discovery of a model in the attic of Walters' former home in Gulf Breeze. The plastic foam and drafting paper model strongly resembled a drawing of an alleged UFO in Walters' book. In another incident, a former Gulf Breeze man said he helped Walters fake UFO photos at least once in 1987. On Monday, Wright said that Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray, a longtime critic of Walters, may have "pressed" the Salisberrys to release their report before election. " It is possible that Gray may have found a sympathetic ear," Wright said in a telephone interview from Lansing, Mich., where he lives. But Salisberry said that Gray had absolutely no influence on the report's release. " I could care less about the City Council race," Salisberry said. " I don't live in Gulf Breeze." Gray would not comment on Wright's allegations. In his report, Salisberry questioned the legitimacy of the so-called " road shot " which shows a UFO hovering over a road. The reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not match the round light source, Salisberry said. Salisberry said that he told MUFON International Director Walt Andrus in September that he believed Walters faked some, if not all, of his photos. It was then, he said, that he learned some MUFON members were trying to discredit him. Before the personal attacks began, he said he decided to make public his findings. " I told them we would not tolerate being discredited," he said. " We were already being categorized as debunkers that have a history of shooting the messenger." Wright on Monday said evidence still indicates Walters' photos are legitimate and that MUFON has no interest in the City Council race. " If we find Rex didn't take into consideration all factors and didn't make all the necessary contacts, we may have to determine it is an incomplete report," Wright said. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Styrofoam Saucer Found in Ed Walters House Message-ID: <1991Nov16.194912.11202@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:49:12 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 68 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3119 alt.conspiracy:8615 sci.skeptic:17695 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- THE TAMPA TRIBUNE, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 13, 1990 ------------------------------------------- By DAVID TORTORANO of United Press International PENSACOLA - A model flying saucer that cast doubts on a man's claim he photographed UFOs two years ago has been tested and is being returned to the man who found it, a newspaper editor said Tuesday. Ken Fortengerry, managing editor of the Pensacola News Journal, said results of the tests would not be known for a couple of weeks. He declined to say what tests were performed. The discovery of the 9-inch model was the latest twist on a story that began in 1987, when contractor Ed Walters took photographs of objects that appeared to be flying saucers near his home in Gulf Breeze, a suburb of Pensacola. The photographs prompted a wave of sightings from other residents that continue to this day. Walters claimed he had dozens of additional encounters, including a face-to-face confrontation with a 4-foot alien. His book about the encounters is selling well. A private group that investigates UFO sightings calls the Gulf Breeze flurry among the most notable sightings in U.S. history. Skeptics have long claimed the pictures were faked, but offered no proof. Then came the model. It was found in April by a man who moved into a house once owned by Walters. The newspaper got possession of the model and on Sunday printed pictures by staff photographers using the model. They look similar to Walters' pictures. "This is a very critical piece of evidence and a very controversial story," said Fortenberry, who said the newspaper was besieged with calls Monday from the media asking about the model. The model was to be returned to the owners Tuesday. The man, who wished not to be identified, said he was installing an ice-maker in his home and had gone to the attic to trace some pipes when he found the model under some insulation. "It was not a shock or startling or anything," said the resident, a scientist. He knew of Walters' involvement in sightings and figured the model was one that Walters may have built for a reenactment. "I thought nothing more about it." Later, he saw a diagram of the Walters' UFO. "I recall thinking to myself, that model looks a lot like this diagram," he said. Last week he received a visit from a reporter from the newspaper. "This, frankly, I find a little suspicious," said the resident, who said the reporter showed up at the door and asked whether he had found any photographs or models. That's when he told him. "I wish I had lied," he said. Walters insists there was ample opportunity for someone to plant the model. "The house was on the market for 10 months, during which time it was opened during the day and sometimes closed up and locked up at night," said Walters. "Sometime, somebody planted this model." -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:51:03 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3120 alt.conspiracy:8616 sci.skeptic:17696 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Date: 03-12-91 00:19 From: John Hicks To: all Subj: GB sighting STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991. On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze. The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their direction. They detected no sound from the object. Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes and there were nine additional witnesses. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Newsclipping 1/30/90 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.195214.11342@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:52:14 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 51 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3121 alt.conspiracy:8617 sci.skeptic:17697 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- 1238 01-30-89 12:11 aes Researchers say photos show UFO GULF BREEZE, Fla. (UPI) _ UFO experts are debating the authenticity of photographs of an eerie cylindrical object glowing in the night sky over the Florida Panhandle town of Gulf Breeze. More than 135 residents in the past 18 months have reported seeing a strange craft hovering in skies over Gulf Breeze, the Tampa Tribune reported Sunday. One resident, asked to be identified only as "Ed," has produced photographs showing a cylindrical craft ringed with lights and what may be windows. The pictures have sparked a battle between two UFO investigating groups. The Mutual UFO Network, a 20-year-old group of scientists and layman researchers, believes Ed's pictures are real. The Center for UFO Studies, a non-profit group founded by the late astronomer J. Allen Hynek, does not. The network cites a 90-page study by Navy physicist Bruce Maccabee, who says Ed could not have fabricated such convincing photographs. "A professional magician would have a difficult time doing this," he said. The center relies on its researchers and on Robert Nathan, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He said the photos show glaring inconsistencies typical of double exposures. Mark Rodeghier of the Center for UFO Studies said the case has "deteriorated into a shouting match" between the two groups, and that the network's endorsement of the pictures biased Maccabee's study. "Except those intimately connected with the network, 90 percent of serious UFO researchers think (the) Gulf Breeze (case) is a hoax," Rodeghier said. But residents of the town of 6,000 think they know what they saw. "I was exhilarated," said Brenda Pollak, a City Council member who claimed to see a large, lighted craft twice in one night last spring over Pensacola Bay. "I can tell you now _ for every one person who has reported seeing the craft, there are 10 who talk about it but don't want anyone to know." -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: UFO Sighting: Gulf Breeze, Florida 07/26/91 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.195728.11475@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 19:57:28 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3122 alt.conspiracy:8618 sci.skeptic:17698 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Date: 08-04-91 00:25 From: John Hicks Subj: Gulf Breeze news In an article in the August 1 Gulf Breeze Sentinel, Vicki Lyons of MUFON wrote that about a dozen people saw the "red light" UFO hovering over the Bob Sikes (Three Mile) Bridge at about 9:15 p.m. Friday, July 26. The sighting lasted a few minutes, and ended when the UFO brightened to white and disappeared. Believe it or not, Ed Walters was driving across the bridge at approximately that time. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Gulf Breeze Newsclipping 10/30/90 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200233.11563@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:02:33 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 95 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3123 alt.conspiracy:8619 sci.skeptic:17699 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- ************************************************************** UFO REPORT POLITICAL, OFFICIAL SAYS By Craig Myers NEWS JOURNAL (TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1990) ************************************************************** A report that Gulf Breeze resident Ed Walters may have faked photographs of UFOs is designed to hurt Walters' campaign for city council, a Mutual UFO Network official said Monday. Dan Wright, who heads UFO investigations for MUFON, said Monday the organization is " concerned that one of our investigators may have taken sides in a political dispute." Walters co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings," which recounts encounters he claims to have had with UFOs between November 1987 and March 1988. He is a candidate for City Council in Gulf Breeze on the Nov. 6 ballot. Walters would not comment Monday, but said earlier this month that his alleged UFO encounters were not an issue in the campaign. The issue resurfaced Friday after Rex and Carol Salisberry, investigators for the UFO network, released a summary of a preliminary report that said Walters likely faked at least two photographs reproduced in his book. The Salisberrys, MUFON investigators of the year in 1989-1990, were asked in July to reopen the case. The new probe was prompted by the discovery of a model in the attic of Walters' former home in Gulf Breeze. The plastic foam and drafting paper model strongly resembled a drawing of an alleged UFO in Walters' book. In another incident, a former Gulf Breeze man said he helped Walters fake UFO photos at least once in 1987. On Monday, Wright said that Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray, a longtime critic of Walters, may have "pressed" the Salisberrys to release their report before election. " It is possible that Gray may have found a sympathetic ear," Wright said in a telephone interview from Lansing, Mich., where he lives. But Salisberry said that Gray had absolutely no influence on the report's release. " I could care less about the City Council race," Salisberry said. " I don't live in Gulf Breeze." Gray would not comment on Wright's allegations. In his report, Salisberry questioned the legitimacy of the so-called " road shot " which shows a UFO hovering over a road. The reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not match the round light source, Salisberry said. Salisberry said that he told MUFON International Director Walt Andrus in September that he believed Walters faked some, if not all, of his photos. It was then, he said, that he learned some MUFON members were trying to discredit him. Before the personal attacks began, he said he decided to make public his findings. " I told them we would not tolerate being discredited," he said. " We were already being categorized as debunkers They have a history of shooting the messenger." Wright on Monday said evidence still indicates Walters' photos are legitimate and that MUFON has no interest in the City Council race. " If we find Rex didn't take into consideration all factors and didn't make all the necessary contacts, we may have to determine it is an incomplete report," Wright said. ************************************************************** -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Salisberry interview, article, Walters hoax Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200356.11637@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:03:56 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 988 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3124 alt.conspiracy:8620 sci.skeptic:17700 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- * THE PRESS RELEASE * Carol and Rex Salisberry State Section Directors for Pensacola MUFON Interview, questions and answers bearing on recent investigation of the Walters' Case. ************************************************************** We wish to release to the public a progress report on our work involving the reopening of the Walters' UFO case. First, two voice stress analyses have been made on a tape recording of the telephone conversation among Mayor Ed Gray, Chief Jerry Brown, Craig Meyers, Mark Curtis and Tommy Smith on 15 June 1990. These analyses both indicate that Tommy Smith was telling the truth in all respects regarding the allegations which he made concerning Mr. Walters and the UFO case. Second, we have investigated the writing on the model which Mr. Menzer found in the attic above his garage and have determined that the paper used in the model could not have been made from a house plan that Mr. Walters claims to have drawn in September 1989 for the Lynn Thomas family. This second point has been independently verified by others including Mr. Phil Klass. Third, we have conducted analyses of Photos 14 and 19 in the Walters' book and have concluded that there is a very high probability that the reflections shown in these photos could not have been made by a hovering object as described by Mr. Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual impossibility for the reflections to have occurred as depicted in the photos. It is, however, very easy to have created these photos by using a small model and double exposure camera techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR-TV. With Photos 14 & 19 shown to be probable fakes, scientific and intellectual integrity dictate that other photos depicting the same models should be considered as highly suspect. This includes the " Believer Bill ", the " Jane " and the so called " Tommy Smith " photos ( the voice stress analyses indicate that Tommy Smith did not take these photos). Question: Are you making this disclosure on behalf of MUFON, or is MUFON intending to release your information through a press conference or other means? Answer: We are providing this information of our own volition and are not speaking for MUFON. We don't know at this point what MUFON intends to do. ************************************************************** Question: Why are you making this disclosure without sanction of MUFON? Answer: Over the past several weeks, many people have advised us of their opinions that MUFON will not acknowledge or release any information from our investigation which tends to disprove the Walters' case. WE have continued to believe in the objectivity of MUFON and believed that they would accept the results of our work at face value. However, in the past few days we have come to believe that others may be correct in their assessment of the situation. ************************************************************** Question: What has caused you to change your opinion in this regard? Answer: We first provided Mr. Andrus, International Director of MUFON, with our preliminary analysis by telephone on 9 Sept, 1990. At that time we described for him a simple demonstration that he could perform to convince himself that we were correct. It was decided at the time to seek additional analysis from other experts to support our own work. We did this and sent Mr. Andrus an Interim Report on 23 Sept, 1990 which contained additional expert analysis confirming our conclusions. We talked with Mr. Andrus by telephone in late September and learned that he had not even done the simple demonstration that we had suggested to him. This tends to make us believe that he is not giving serious consideration to our analysis or the supporting analysis of other experts. Also, we have now learned that elements of MUFON are attempting to discredit us as " debunkers " which we deem eminently unfair in consideration of the large amount of time and effort we have devoted to objective reassessment of this case. ************************************************************** Question: Can you describe the simple demonstration for us and could our readers do the demonstration for themselves? Answer: Yes, it is very easy to do. It is basically a demonstration to show what the reflection in Photo 19 should look like when reflected from the flat road surface. The data to use can be taken from Dr. Maccabee's article in the 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings. These are as follows: distance from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5) feet; the diameter of the light ring at the bottom of the object is 7.5 feet; the height of the object above the road is about 3 feet; and the height of the camera is about 5 feet. You then set up a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot to do your demonstration. For example.... Cut a circle of white paper 7.5 inches in diameter, place the white circle on a flat service and move away 185 inches to simulate the camera location, then raise your eye level to 5 inches above the elevation of the white circle, and you can see how the reflection should look. If you look at this photograph which we took of our own demonstration you can see that the reflection should appear as a narrow horizontal line and not as the much taller reflection as shown in Photo 19 of Walters' book. Walters' photo depicts the reflection as " hanging in mid air " instead of flat on the road as should be expected. It could be argued that the Walters' camera might have been higher than the 5 feet which we have used, but we have shown that the camera height would need to have been about 45 feet in the air to produce the reflection in Photo 19. If you will look at photo 19 in Walters' book, you can readily see that the higher elevation was not possible. Also, here is another photo which we took of our demonstration to show the results of the higher camera height, and you can see that the image of the reflection now approximates those in Walters' photos. This next photo shows the result if the road surface had been slanted up by about 14 degrees under the object. You can again see that this approximates the reflections in Walters' photos. The point here is that there is a strong indication that a small model and double exposure camera techniques were used by Walters' to take photos 14 and 19. There is strong support for this in the work done by Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. He made the same mistake in setting up his model which produces the same " impossible reflection " results as shown in Walters' photos. Your readers can get an idea of what we are talking about here by observing the reflections of car headlights on the road as they drive at night, or by noting shadows on the ground in the early morning or late evening. ************************************************************** Question: You said that you have also done a mathematical analysis, what does this show. Answer: Since the three-dimensional appearance of the purported reflection is converted to two dimensions on film, we calculated what that two-dimensional presentation to the camera should be. The horizontal component is essentially unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, but the vertical presentation is calculated by trigonometric relationships as shown here. You can see that the vertical dimension that the camera would see is about 2.5 inches. You can compare this to the measured and calculated value of 22.5 inches from photo 19 and readily see that vertical presentation to the camera in Walter's photos is roughly 9 times " taller " than it should be. This should present conclusive evidence that photo 19 was faked. The same conclusion can be made for photo 14 since it is essentially identical to photo 19 except for the geographic location and the use of different models. With these two photos shown to be fakes, all other photos which show the same model, should also be suspected of being fakes. This would include the " Believer Bill " and " Jane " photographs as well as the so called " Tommy Smith " photos. By the way, an independent analysis conducted of the purported " Smith " photos by a Ph.D. level photogramatrist indicates his conclusion that, " The sequence looks systematic and staged with a model at 6-9 feet. " This tends to support Tommy Smith's allegations that Mr. Walters had taken those photographs of a model. ************************************************************** Question: What about the other experts which you claim have validated your conclusions? Answer: We have had an analysis done by a local Analytical Physicist who hold a Masters Degree in Physics and does these types of analyses for his employer. He has constructed a rigorous mathematical model to show what the expected reflection should be under almost any set of conditions. When Maccabee's data, which I mentioned earlier, are substituted into this model the results are essentially equivalent to our own, i.e. that the reflections in Walters' photos 14 & 19 are about 9 times taller than they should be, which again indicates that the reflections in Walters' photos are suspended in air and not off of the road or field as one would expect. The conclusions of this analyst are, " A direct measurement from photo 19 reveals that r=4. This is physically impossible, in view of the above analysis. Therefore photo 19 is a physically impossible representation of reality and is faked. The above analysis is rigorous and leaves no room for doubt. It assumes only cylindrical symmetry of light emissions with respect to the object axes of symmetry and the accuracy of Maccabees's calculations." ( r in this conclusion refers to the aspect ratio of the horizontal divided by the vertical dimensions.) We have another analysis done by a Ph.D. level photogrammatrist who is a friend. His results agree closely with those of ours which we demonstrated earlier. His conclusion is, " The reflection in Gulf Breeze photo 19 is inconsistent with the reported events." We will not use his analysis because of his need for anonymity. We have also shared our work with Dr. Robert Nathan who is doing an independent analysis of his own at our request. He has expressed his agreement with our analysis and conclusions verbally over the telephone, but because of his busy schedule, he has not yet completed his own analysis. We have also consulted with another Ph.D. level photogrammatrist who has done previous analyses of the Walters' photos. He has expressed verbal agreement with our analysis with the comment " I wish that I had thought of that aspect". Arguments may be advanced that a non uniform illumination might be able to produce the reflections as shown in the photos 14 & 19. The experienced analysts mentioned before assure us that such non-uniform illumination should still produce an elliptical pattern for the reflection. However, the brightness of the reflection might be " spotty " ( i.e. brighter in some places and dimmer in others. ) Also, The diamond shape of the reflections in these two photos is not a normal expectation and is probably the result of error in planning how the reflection should look when the model was photographed for double exposure process. ************************************************************** Question: Dr. Bruce Maccabee has done considerable work on these photos and seems to have concluded that they are real UFOs. Your analysis and conclusions seem to be in conflict with his. How do you explain that? Answer: Numerous experts have applauded Dr. Maccabee on his analytical work, however, many of them have questioned his assumptions and his logic ised in drawing his conclusions. For example, on page 145 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings, Maccabee states " The reflection in the road below the object is unusual because of its shape and brilliance. It is not round, but more diamond shaped, indicating that the object was emanating a non-circular pattern. The reflection beneath the object in Photo 14 ( Figure 19 ) is also diamond shaped." Here he draws the conclusion that the circular source ( to which he admits on the same page ) made a diamond shaped reflection, which as an optical physicist, he should know to be impossible. He goes on to say " ( From a hoax point of view this is surprising because a model with a bulb inside would very probably give a circular illumination pattern.)" This sentence indicates that Maccabee assumed that one needed to put a bulb inside of the model to create a hoax. He conveniently ignored other hoax scenarios, such as the one used by Mark Curtis ( and probably by Mr. Walters ) wherein the shape of the " reflection" was designed into the model set up. Maccabee goes on to say " The brilliance of the reflection is also surprising, considering that it was reflecting off a (wet) road." We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not address this incongruity in more detail since it is known that he and Mr. Charles Flannigan conducted experiments in this regard. When you consider that the surface of the road ( Black top) is highly absorptive, it should be obvious to even the casual observer that the intensity of the " reflection" is much too great when compared to the intensity of the source. We find it surprising that Dr. Maccabee did not address some of these important considerations which lead directly to conclusions that Photo 19 is a fake. Another incongruity in Dr. Maccabee's work can be found in the last paragraph on page 169 of the 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings. In this paragraph, Dr. Maccabee explains the difficulties that Mr. Walters would have in photographing a model in Photos 36 L&R with the time elements involved and with witnesses nearby in the parking lot. He ignores the fact that Mr. Walters' wife, Frances, was with him and could have greatly reduced the difficulties. In fact, it would have been a rather simple process for two people as pointed out elsewhere by Maccabee in the article. Maccabee also fails to report that Frances did not emerge from the bushes at the same time as Mr. Walters and had ample time to have hidden away the model and other paraphernalia involved. Other witnesses have confirmed that Frances did indeed remain concealed by the bushes for some period of time after Mr. Walters appeared with the photos. Dr. Maccabee has also asserted that rigorous proceedures were used to record the numbers of the backs of the photos to track them and obviate the possibility of substitution. These assertions have been refuted by Mr. Charles Flannigan and the witnesses who were present at the time. None of the witnesses recorded the numbers! The public may not be aware that Dr. Maccabee was paid for his work concerning the Walters' case. At this point, we have not been able to ascertain when he was paid, how much, who paid him, when he was paid, or what he was expected to do for the pay. With this in mind, we have excluded him from our investigation team to avoid accusations of bias in our results. Now, with our conclusions in conflict with those of Dr. Maccabee, we expect the accusations anyhow. We understand that Dr. Maccabee and Mr. Robert Oechsler have done analyses on the so called " Tommy Smith " photos. We requested the results of their analyses as early as July, but neither shared them with us, which we find strange. Along the same line, many investigators around the country have shared their results with us, but we have not been able to reciprocate in kind because of our loyalties to MUFON. We do not want this misconstrued as any kind of personal attack on Dr. Maccabee for that is not our intent. He has written and spoken profusely on this case and we simply disagree with many of his assuptions and conclusions. ************************************************************** Question: What have you determined about the model found in the Walters' former home? Answer: We have statements in writing from the current owners of the home and we have interviewed them on several occasions. We, as well as other investigators, have determined that the house plan segment used to build the mid-section of the model could not have come from the plans which were drawn in September 1989 as claimed by Mr. Walters. Those plans specify that the exterior of the home to be " Sinergy " whereas the plans in the model specify a brick exterior. The address for the home to be built from the plans drawn by Mr. Walters in September 1989 would have been 700 Jamestown Dr. whereas the address on the plans in the model appears to be 712 Jamestown Dr. The residence at 712 Jamestown DR. was apparently built by Mr. Walters in early 1987. This represents a direct contradiction to the claims of Mr. Walters that he drew the plans found in the model in September 1989. Mr. Walters has also publicly stated that the model was in plain sight in the attic when Mr. Menzer found it. This is a contradiction to Mr. Menzer's statement in which he indicates that he did not notice the model until he moved a considerable amount of loose insulation aside. The question begs to be asked, " Did Walters have foreknowledge of the location and relative visibility of the model in the attic prior to its discovery by Mr. Menzer?" If you look on the bottom of page 28 in Walters' book where he provides a description of the "UFO" that he saw: " There were also some diamond shapes between some of the large black squares and, unseen on the photos, there were definitely horizontal lines going around the main body. ( see drawing following page 64)". The drawings following page 64 do not show any horizontal lines except for the seams between the various sections. In the book, " photo 14, light-blasted and enhanced for detail, enlargement" show these same seams, so Walters could not have meant them when he described the horizontal lines. However, the model found in Menzer's atic have neatly drawn horizontal lines around the main body of the model, which is the only place that we can find the horizontal lines as described by Mr. Walters. This seems to indicate that Mr. Walters knows more about the model than he has admitted. It is also noteworthy that 12 and 14 in Walters' book bear a marked resemblance to the model found in the Menzer's attic. ************************************************************** Questioon: What about the witnesses that have come forward and have claimed to have seen what Ed Walters has photographed? Answer: We agree that a few witnesses came forward in late 1987 and in 1988, after they had seen the photos, and claimed to have seen a similar UFO. It is not our purpose to discredit those witnesses. We examined their case file reports and news accounts, and we have been able to interview most of them in person or over the phone. Under the conditions of observation (altitude, time of day, length of sighting, angle of view etc.) and general descriptions given, what they saw was similar in some cases but not an exact match to the Walters' photos. For example, we interviewed Charles and Doris Sommerby recently. They said that the UFO that they saw in Nov. of 1987 was at least 150ft. across, had one row of round portholes with bright lights shining out of them, had a large lighted dome on the top that covered most of the top-half of the UFO, and it had a circle of smaller bright lights on the bottom. According to Dr. Maccabee's calculations the UFO that Mr. Walters photographed was only 12 to 25 ft across, had 2 rows of square portholes, had a small light on the top, and a solid ring of light on the bottom. Because they saw it on the same day that Walters reported photographing his UFO, they assumed it was the same. We have found that other witnesses did not see all the same details that are included in the photos, and because they made their report after they had seen a photo, a psychological principal known as "gestalt" may have influenced their report. (The MUFON Investigators Manual cautions against contaminating the witnesses by showing them photographs of other sightings prior to their own independent description.) But it is also important to recognize that witness testimony is supportive, but does not prove the authenticity of the Walters' photos. These two issues must be separated in the final analysis. ************************************************************** Question: What about the lie detector tests that Mr. Walters claims that he has passed? Answer: The Lie Detector Tests-- A misleading Issue. In the Aug. 16, 1990, Gulf Breeze Sentinel, Ed Walters wrote an article entitled " Tommy Smith's Statements Questioned." In this article Ed writes: On June 19 I was challenged by Tommy's father to take a lie detector test. On that same evening I took the test and passed. Ed Walters has now taken 4 seperate tests with three different examiners and passed them all. My wife Frances and Hank Boland were also tested previously." In an interview with Ed and Frances in Sept. 1990 in which Charles Flannigan and the Salisberrys were present, we asked Frances if she had ever taken a lie detector test and she said, "No" She explained that a taped interview had been tested by MUFON without their specific approval. Two tapes were submitted by Bob Oeschler to an examiner in Maryland. The examiner stated: " The way the interviews were done and the type of information discussed does not give the examiner the verbal material necessary for him to be able to say if these individuals are being completely truthful with the interviewer. This examiner does find two areas in Mr. Hank's ( Hank Boland) interview that showed meaningful reaction which indicates a problem with his answer. The answer he gives regarding the reason for the object disappearing when Ed saw (Hank). Mr. Hanks said that the craft communicates through Ed and can sense things through Ed. The other area is where he does not want to sign the form with his true name." On June 19 Ed had himself tested with the Psychological Stress Evalutator, voice stress test by Robert Lauland in New Orleans. ( It is interesting to note that a test is only as good as its questions, or that the questions will determine the outcome, pass or fail) Here are a few of the questions that were asked: " Is it true that you did not kill a circular area of grass on the soccer field of G.B. High by using a trampoline?" A better question might have been, Did you tell Tommy Smith that you killed the grass with a trampoline? The real issue is whether or not he told Tommy certain things. ( see additional questions below) In Feb., 1988 Mr. Charles Flannigan arranged to have Ed tested by a reputable examiner. Mr. Flannigan and other investgators created a list of questions that the examiner could use. Ed chose not to be tested under these supervised conditions. Instead he went by himself, on 2 occasions, to another polygrapher and paid for a polygraph. The questions that the investigators prepared were not used by the examiner, and no one from MUFON accompanied him to the testing site or observed the conditions of testing. This examiner stated that, " He (ED) claims to desire no personal gain or renumeration from these sightings. " ( However, Ed and Frances did have a book in preparation at this time and were actively seeking publication, which usually means money.) It would be desirable for Ed, Frances, their son Danny, Hank Boland, and Tommy Smith to all take supervised polygraph tests to insure the validity of the results. So far the Smith family has agreed to these conditions if the Walters family would agree also. The Walters family has so far refused. ************************************************************** Questions from Lauland voice stress analysis June 19, 1990 and observations on these questions: 1... Is it true that you did not make the UFO model that was found at 612 Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl, ? Ans: Yes ( observation: Someone could have made the model for Ed, and he could be answering this question truthfully) 2... Is it true that you did not have a model of a UFO at 612 Silverthorn Dr. in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Ans: Yes. ( observation: If Ed had more than one model of UFOs at the house, this answer could be truthful but misleading.) 3... Is it true that you do not know who made the UFO model found on Silverthorn Drive in Gulf Breeze, Fl. Answer: Yes. (observation: The question has been skillfully juggled from the previous pattern by substituting ON for AT and omitting the house number. Ed could be answering truthfully in that the model was not found on the street, but inside the house.) 4... Is it true that you have never taken stereo camera photos of any airplane landing any time in your life? Answer: Yes. (observation: Ed could be answering this question truthfully since it is the wrong question, The question should have read, " Is it true That you told Tommy Smith that you went out and took a picture of an airplane landing at night, held the camera sideways, " since that was the allegation made by Tommy Smith) 5... Is it true that you did not kill a circular area of grass on the soccer field of Gulf Breeze High School by using a trampoline? Answer: (observation: again this is the wrong question. Tommy Smith's allegation was, " If I remember correctly, he told me that he turned a small trampoline upside down on it for a while and jumped up and down on it." Obviously the question does not address the allegation. Mr. Lauland states in his opening paragraph, " ...and the questions were reworded for clarification..." (This gave Walters the opportunity to carefully word the questions so that he could answer truthfully without providing any meaningful results.) ************************************************************** Question: What do you foresee will be the official MUFON position to your disclosure of this information? Answer: We really don't know, but we feel that we have an obligation to share the results of our efforts with the citizens of Gulf Breeze and the Pensacola area. Remember that we too were believers of the Walters case and only changed our minds after the preponderance of evidence indicated that there was a hoax involved. We hope that MUFON will consider our evidence and support our conclusions. We sincerely hope that MUFON will continue to be an objective investigative agency of the UFO phenomena. ************************************************************** Question: You probably know that Mr. Walters is running for the office of City Council member. What effect do you forsee that your disclosure will have on his campaign? Answer: We are not residents of Gulf Breeze and hence have no interest in the elections of the city. Our timing on the release of this information is precipitated by the lnowledge that some elements of MUFON are attempting to discredit us. We also would like to bring the investigation to a close because we have many important things to do that have been deferred because of our work on the case. We even gave up our usual summer vacation because of it. ************************************************************** Question: Is there anything else that you would like to add? Answer: Yes, we would like to repeat that the validity of the hundreds of other UFO related events which have been reported in the area is not affected by this disclosure and the outcome of the Walters case. We still remain students and investigators of the UFO phenomena and are grateful to the many witnesses who have shared their experience with us. We hope that they will continue to do so. ************************************************************** ************************************************************** *THE PRINTED NEWS ARTICLE* PENSACOLA NEWS JOURNAL SATURDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1990 .............................. INVESTIGATORS DOUBT UFO AUTHOR BY CRAIG MYERS NEWS JOURNAL .............................. Two investigators for the MUTUAL UFO Network said Friday they believe Gulf Breeze author Ed. Walters faked some of the photos of UFOs that appear in his book. " We believe that UFOs exist," said Rex and Carol Salisberry of Navarre of their study of several of Walter's photos. " We entered this investigation with a natural and favorable bias toward the Walter's case, " but " our investigation and analysis lend to the conclusion that several, if not all of the photos are probable hoaxes." Walters, who co-wrote " The Gulf Breeze Sightings" with his wife Frances, maintains the photos are real and that they were taken during numerous encounters between November 1987 and March 1988. Walters has appeared on numerous radio and television shows, including " Unsolved Mysteries " and the Oprah Winfrey Show, to recount his experiences with UFOs. He was reported to be out of town Friday and could not be reached for comment. In July the couple was named " Investigators of the Year " at a MUFON Symposium in Pensacola. Walt Andrus, MUFON's international director, said Friday that his organization is not yet ready to give its stamp of approval to the Salisberry's four month investigation of the photos. " I don't know how they arrived at that decision." Andrus said from his office in Sequin, Texas. " It is certainly premature. He has no business talking to reporters. It has never been cleared through here. He can't make representations for the organizations." Andrus, who has for two years endorsed the Walters case, appointed Salisberry in July to take a second look at the case after questions surfaced about the credibility of Walter's photos. The first question arose after a model was found in the Walter's former residence in Gulf Breeze in March. The Styrofoam and drafting paper model was found in the attic of the home and strongly resembled a drawing Walter's made of one of his UFO sightings. The second question arose when Tommy Smith, formerly of Gulf Breeze, said in July that he witnessed Walter's fake UFO photos. Smith said Walters asked him to take some faked UFO photos to the Gulf Breeze newspaper and claim they were real. But Andrus on Friday said Smith is lying and the UFO model was hidden in the attic by someone who wants to discredit Walters. "Tommy Smith can't prove any of his statements- they are outlandish lies," Andrus said. The Salisberrys said Smith's testimony and the model contributed to their conclusion, but more convincing was an analysis of Walter's so-called " road shot " that shows a UFO hovering over a road. Salisberry said the reflection of the spacecraft, which should be flat, actually is at an angle that does not match the road's surface. The triangular shape of the reflection also does not match the round light source on the bottom of the craft, he said. The Salisberrys said the photo and a second photo probably was created by a double-exposure-- a process by which a model is photographed and the image is exposed again onto the same frame of film. " With these photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos... should be considered as highly suspect, " Salisberry wrote in the preliminary report. Seven MUFON members investigated the sightings in 1988 and concluded Walter's story was true. The Salisberrys were not among the original investigators, but joined MUFON in November 1988. Andrus said that while the Salisberrys are good investigators, they cannot yet speak for MUFON. " They ( the Salisberrys ) do not have grounds to arrive at that conclusion until it is submitted to us. We will have to look at their facts," Andrus said. The Salisberrys have not yet submitted their report to MUFON. Phil Klass, a contributing editor to Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine and a longtime Walters critic, said Andrus is too " proud and stubborn " to accept the report. " I think the Salisberrys should be commended for being willing to change their earlier opinion," said Klass. But Dr. Bruce Maccabee, a photographic analyst who has defended Walter's photos. said the road reflection does not discredit the photo. Maccabee said his analysis of the photo shows light from beneath the object was projected at an angle-like car headlights shinning ahead of a car on a wet road. Maccabee said Friday he still is open-minded about the Walter's sightings, but said it would take more convincing evidence than Salisberry's report to convince him of a hoax. " Nothing I have seen has changed my mind," Maccabee said. Salisberry said his conclusion on Walters' photo does not shake his own belief in UFOs. And he said his report won't end the Walters' debate. " The problem with Walters' story isn't a UFO problem, it is a human problem". Salisberry said. " If the Walters' case is typical of most UFO cases, the debate will probably go on for years in spite of any evidence pro or con." ************************************************************** ************************************************************** *THE INTERIM REPORT TO MUFON* From: Carol A. & Rex C. Salisberry 23 September 1990 Navarre Beach, Fl. 32566-7235 To: Walter H. Andrus, Jr. 103 Oldtowne Road Sequin, Tx 78155-4099 Subject: Interim Report on the reopening of the Walters' UFO Case Background: The investigators, Carol & Rex Salisberry had not been involved with the prior investigation of the Walter's Case and had accepted the MUFON assessment of its validity without close personal scrutiny. When Tommy Smith came forward with his allegations on 15 June 1990, the investigators doubted them and, in fact made several public statements in support of the Walter's Case. After the press conferences on 19 June 1990, wherein Mr. Charles Flannigan ( Florida MUFON State Director) announced the reopening of the Walters' Case and the commitment by MUFON to finding the truth, we were asked by Mr. Flannigan to assist him in the next phase of the investigation. During a meeting of Mr. Walter Andrus, MUFON International Director, Mr. Flannigan, and Mr. Salisberry on Thursday 5 July 1990, Mr. Andrus expressed his capacity to accept the result that the Walter's Case was a total fraud if that was proven to be the case. We deemed this to be a critical commitment on his part , because we didn't want the results of our work to " be swept under the rug" if they were contrary to the then prevailing views of many MUFON officials and others. Upon receiving this commitment from Mr. Andrus we proceeded with the investigation with an open mind and with the greatest degree of objectivity that we could muster. Our previous, personal supportive views of the case had to be subjugated so as not to influence the fact finding process. Tentative Conclusions: Although there is much work remaining to be done in the investigation of this case, we have arrived at result that we deem should be brought to the attention of MUFON before it is uncovered and released to the public by outside interests. On 9 September 1990, our analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' case indicated a very high probability that the reflection on the road could not have been made by an object hovering over the road as described by Mr. Walters and validated by Dr. Maccabee. It is a virtual physical impossibility for the reflection to occur as depicted in Photo 19. Perhaps one of the easiest methods of producing the photo is by use of a small model (photographed at close range) and double exposure techniques as demonstrated by Mr. Mark Curtis of WEAR TV. Mr. Curtis and his associate, a biologist and model maker, have been harshly criticized by their critics. We were allowed to witness their effort and know that their intent was to demonstrate that the process was feasible and their purpose was not to duplicate the Walters' photo. (It is interesting that they too introduced the fatal flaw of creating a reflection which was not possible under the circumstances.) The detailed account of our analysis of Photo 19 is shown in Attachment 1. Mr. Flannigan and Mr. Salisberry telephoned Mr. Andrus on Sunday evening 9 September 1990 to inform him of the results of the analysis. During the conversation it was suggested that two independent experts be contacted to confirm the validity of our analysis. Those two experts were provided the details of the analysis and have orally responded with their confirmations of the validity of the results. With Photo 19 shown to be a probable hoax, Photo 14 is likewise categorized since it is essentially identical to Photo 19 except for geographic location. With these two photos reassessed as probable hoaxes, the other photos which depict an image of the same model should be considered as highly suspect. Intellectual and scientific integrity then dictate that the suspect photos be downgraded in the overall assessment of the validity of the case. Another aspect of the Walters' case which has come into question is whether or not he knew how to take double exposures prior to 11 November 1987. Mr. S. Peter Neumann, of WEAR TV and a resident of Gulf Breeze, has informed us that Mr. Walters had told him and his wife much earlier than 11 November 1987 that Walters sometimes used double exposure photography to amuse the young people who attended the parties in the Walters' home. Mr. Neumann has declined to provide us with a written and signed statement to this effect, but indicated that he would provide the same information to anyone calling by telephone. Additionally, the young people whom we have interviewed relate that Mr. Walters consistently "had a camera in his hand" at the various activities at which he was present. These young people also confirmed that Mr. Walters sometimes took what appeared to be trick photos and that they could not understand how it was done. Discussion: It is emphasized that the reassessment of the Walters' Case should not be cause to believe or disbelieve the hundreds of other UFO related experiences in the Pensacola area. Each reported case had been evaluated on its own merits and should stand as reported. It is even quite probable that the Walters family have had experiences with UFO related phenomena; however, this is difficult to assess at this point because of the previous preoccupation with the photos which may have distorted the data. Recommendation: MUFON should release the results of our analysis to the public as soon as practical. We consider this important to maintain our integrity as an objective UFO investigative organization. Attachment One Preliminary Analysis of Photo 19 of the Walters' UFO Case made by Rex C. Salisberry on 9 September 1990. ASSUMPTIONS: (1) The object and the light ring at the bottom are circular (source - Mccabee, 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings). (2) The distance from the camera to the object is 185 (+/- 5) feet (source - Maccabee, page 145 of 1988 MUFON Symposium Proceedings) (3) The diameter of the light ring at the bottom is 7.5 feet (source - Maccabee, same as #2). (4) The tilt of the object away from the observer is about 13 degrees ( source - Dr. Willy Smith, page 14 of his " The Gulf Breeze Saga") (5) The height of the object above the road is about 3 feet (source - Maccabee, same as #2). (6) The height of the camera was about 5 feet. (7) The reflection on the Flat and relatively level road should have a round or slightly oval shape. Regardless of the shape of the reflection, since the cross dimension of the light is roughly equal to the cross dimension of the reflection, fore-and-aft dimensions of the light and the reflection should also correspond. APPROACH: It seemed to be a prudent scientific approach to determine what the reflection should appear to be under the given assumptions and then compare that result with the photograph. ANALYSIS: (1) Since the three-dimensional appearance of the reflection is converted to two dimensions on film, the two dimensional presentation to the camera should be determined. The horizontal presentation is unchanged because of the geometry of the scene, however the height and depth presentations are converted to a vertical only presentation as follows: 5ft-> | |90__________> (Angle A ) 185ft Angle A = arctan 5/185 = arctan (0.027027) = 1.54815 degrees The fore-and-aft dimension (x,) of the reflection on the road is given by ^ <-7.5ft /90 /_____________13 degrees x, x, = (7.5 feet)/(cosine 13 degrees)= 7.6972813 feet The vertical dimension (y,) as it would appear to the camera is then given by | 5ft | ^y, | | |90_______________7.6972813______>Angle A = 1.54815 185ft y, = ( 7.6972813 feet)( sin 1.54815 deg.) = 0.2979574 feet = 2.49549 inches. (2) Computation of the comparable vertical dimension from the photo facing page 129 of Walter's book is as follows: The ratio of the vertical dimension to the horizontal dimension is approximately 1 to 4 as measured on the photograph. Then by proportion Yz / 7.6972813 feet = 1/4 Yz = (7.6972813feet)/4 = 1.9243203 feet which is over 9 times greater than the expected value computed in (1) (3) If the road surface was sloped up abruptly below the object at an angle of about 14 degrees, the presentation of the reflection as shown on Photo 19 could have been attained. . | . |1.9243203 feet . | Angle B <________________90| 7.6972813 feet Angle B = arctan (1.9243203)/(7.7972813)= 14 degrees (This computation is not precise but is a close enough approximation upon which to draw a conclusion.) Since the road is known to not have a 14 degree slope at the point indicated in the photo, this possibility is ruled out. However, a similar reflection to the one shown in Photo 19 was produced by Mark Curtis for WEAR TV which indicates that the reflection could have been made by using a small model and double-exposure camera techniques. Mr. Curtis and his associate made the mistake of slanting the top of their light pipe and then covering it with thin paper to create the image for reflection. The fatal flaw produced a similar " fat " reflection as the one shown in Photo 19. (4) It is possible that the camera elevation could have been higher than the 5 feet assumed, so the camera elevation needed to produce the photo image of the reflection is roughly calculated by using a proportion as follows: | Y3 | |< 1.9243203 feet | | |_________|____________________ 7.6972813 feet |<.............185 feet.......>| Y3/185 feet = 1.9243203 feet/7.6972813 feet Y3 = (1.9243203) (185 feet)/7.6972813 = 46.25 feet Visual inspection of photo 19 indicates that a camera elevation of 46.25 feet was not possible. (5) It could also be argued that the fore-and-aft dimension of the reflection on the road could have been greater than the approximate 7.7 feet calculated in (1) above. Therefore a calculation of the fore-and-aft dimension needed to produce the reflection of Photo 19 is as follows: | . 5 ft | | <1.9243203 feet |90........|.....X2....... |> 185ft <| X2 = (185) ( 1.9243203feet)/5 = 71.2 feet Again, a visual inspection of Photo 19 rules out this possibility. (6) Other arguments could be offered, e.g. heat from the bottom of the UFO heated the wet road which caused steam to rise. The reflection on the water droplets in the steam would then cause the reflection to appear " fatter " than expected. Such arguments employ circular logic and hence must be discounted. Additional, the case file does not contain any evidence to indicate that the road was subjected to heat. (7) Anyone can perform a simple demonstration to convince himself of the validity of the above analysis. Construct a model of the scene using a scale of 1 inch = 1 foot as follows: (1) Cut a 7.5 inch diameter circle from a piece of white paper. (2) Place the 7.5 inch circular piece of paper on a flat surface to represent the reflection on the road. (3) Move away 185 inches to simulate the distance from the camera to the object. (4) View the circle from an elevation of 5 inches above the elevation of the circle as shown below ( You can cut a peep hole 5 inches above the bottom edge of a piece of cardboard to help in setting the proper height above the circle of paper): (Eye)>| |5 inches |____________________________()7.5inch white disc 185 inches One can then easily see that the circle appears as a thin line and not as the "fat" reflection shown in Photo 19 Conclusions: It is virtually impossible that the object as described in Walter's book and Maccabee's analyses could have caused the reflection as shown in Photo 19. A small model and double exposure camera techniques could have been used to produce the reflection as described in (3) above. *END OF RELEASE OF MATERIAL* ************************************************************** ************************************************************** ************************************************************** *COMMENTS* Few UFO cases have captured the attention and interest of both Ufologists and the general public such as the Gulf Breeze saga has managed to do. For that reason this information is being distributed to the public and interested parties for their evaluation in determining their views toward case. This information is being supplied in the interest of making details well known locally in GULF BREEZE available to the public at large. The information which is included in this release is as factual a reproduction of the material just released assuming no errors in composition under the time restraints in getting this information made public. Actual copies of all the reports are available and final decisions should be based on those documents, as necessary for supporting conjecture. However, the presented information is as accurate a reproduction as can be evaluated by the submitter. 10-28-90 Phillip Ray Griffin - Rainbow BBS -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Sentinel Newspaper UFO Reports Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200502.11703@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:05:02 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 68 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3125 alt.conspiracy:8621 sci.skeptic:17701 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following two articles appeared in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel on April 26, 1990. They relate to the continuing UFO sightings that have been occurring in the Gulf Breeze, FL area over the past few years. A photograph showing a large "light" in the sky was also presented. ----------------------------------------------------------------- SCIENTIST STUDIES SIZE AND DISTANCE OF UFO Multiple sightings and photographs help scientists locate the size and distance of the red glowing object that flew over Gulf Breeze on Wednesday, April 18, 1990. Several of the thirty-plus witnesses who saw the object also video taped the sighting which further aids the investigation. Using the 35 mm photos of the object, the angle of elevation and distance to the object was calculated to be approximately 3.4 miles when first seen to approximately 1.7 miles when the object disappeared. An optical study is now being conducted by a leading expert from Washington, D.C., Dr. Bruce Maccabee. If, upon further study, the image on the 35 mm negatives proves to be .0625 mm, then the object was about 15 feet wide. The brilliant red glow of the object was also witnessed by officers John Rhodes and Don Stevens who said, "It was not an airplane or helicopter, it was a very bright red light at least several miles away. We don't know what it was." Doug Wilkes witnessed the object and later reported to Police Chief Brown, "I'm ex-military and an expert on helicopter profile; this was no helicopter or flare or anything that I could identify." From April 11 to April 18, there were five multiple witness sightings involving as many as 60 people, four videotapes and dozens of photos. ------------------------------------------------------------------ WITNESS DESCRIBES UFO SIGHTING Andy O'Daniel came to the Sentinel last week to share his UFO sighting of Wednesday evening, April 11th. Andy said he was just stepping out of the dugout about 9:00 p.m. when he saw a bright red/orange light rise from the trees behind left field. It went straight up, stopped, then came over the ball park and stopped again "as if it was checking things out," said Andy. Then it moved south out of sight. "I don't know what it was," said Andy. "But I know what it wasn't and it wasn't a plane, helicopter, or balloon." ============================================================================== -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy.sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 4/20/89 Gulf Breeze Newsclipping Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200718.11774@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:07:18 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 245 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3126 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Strange things are still flying around the small community of Gulf Breeze, Florida. Three recent articles on the subject, published in the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, are presented below (with permission). ----------------------------------------------------------------- Gulf Breeze Sentinel, April 20, 1989 UFO'S SIGHTED OVER GULF BREEZE, AGAIN? WITNESS LYNN SOLEY IS A WELL KNOWN GULF BREEZE ARTIST, AND HER HUSBAND IS A PRINTER AT PENSACOLA MAGAZINE "When we first saw it, it was about 10:00 p.m. Monday," said Mrs. Lynn Soley of Breeze Street in Gulf Breeze, of an unidentified flying object. "We were in the front yard. My husband spotted it in the sky and he went in and got his binoculars. We all took turns looking at it. It was flashing red, yellow, green, and blue lights, with a white light. And then, on the upper right hand side and from time to time, it would move down the lower right side and then over to the lower left hand corner of the thing." "At one point, it turned on its side or something and the white light was in the center with red flashing lights going around it in a circle. Then, when we lost sight of it, we rode over to Shoreline Park where we saw three more just like it. Then we saw, in one part of the sky, what looked like a big, bright star. The funny thing was, though, when the four UFO'S vanished, so did the big white star. It disappeared too." SENTINEL: How many people saw it, and can you tell us who they were? SOLEY: While at Shoreline Park, we ran into a fisherman and a man walking his dog. They were looking at it. We were all sharing the binoculars. And then very shortly, of course, came Gulf Breeze Police and two police officers saw it. SENTINEL: They said they saw it, too? SOLEY: Yes, they had our binoculars. We shared binoculars. My husband is a printer and the thing that amazed him about this one, as well as the one he saw about 13 years ago, he said, was that the colors of the lights were not like the colors we have here. Like the red lights were not any shade of red he had ever seen before. And the same with the blue and the green. And then my brother-in-law, who we walked out to the car with, has been in radar with the Navy ten years active duty and twenty with the Reserves. He said he didn't recognize it as anything he had ever seen in the Navy, and that the lighting on it was not like any aircraft lighting that he had seen before. Then Tuesday night, Joe went out to the backyard and saw another one--just like the other four we'd seen on Monday night, but this one didn't stay there very long. It vanished in about 30 minutes. SENTINEL: And where is your house? SOLEY: On Breeze Street, off of North Sunset on the other side of the peninsula, behind the Holiday Inn, more or less. And the direction the thing was going in, it must have gone right over our house and we missed it. It was like it was right over our front yard and then starting veering southwest and finally, at Shoreline Park. When they all left at once, they went southwest. SENTINEL: That was Monday night at what time? SOLEY: That was Monday night at 10:00 when we first saw it in our front yard. We watched it for about an hour there, then went to Shoreline Park and it was about 1:00 in the morning when they got so faint and all but one had disappeared and about that time the big white light was gone too. SENTINEL: How far away would you estimate it was when you saw it? SOLEY: The first time we saw it--it's hard to say because I don't know how big they really are--I would say it was probably over the center part of Gulf Breeze between Shoreline and Fairpoint. It would have been about in that general area when we first saw it. SENTINEL: Any sensation of noise? SOLEY: No, no noise at all. It just hovered there and from time to time they'd go up, down, or left to right, but they were moving kind of slow. You figure we watched them for about three hours until they got so tiny you could barely see them anymore, and that's when the big, bright "star" was gone too. SENTINEL: So, the summary is, you saw it Monday from your home as you were going out to your car, you and your brother? SOLEY: Brother-in law. SENTINEL: What's his name? SOLEY: Charles Higgs. It was him, my sister and his mother--three of them. There were nine of us altogether that saw it. My brother-in-law and my sister live in Little Rock, Arkansas. I don't know the names of the policemen or the guys we saw at the park. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Gulf Breeze Sentinel, May 4, 1989 SENTINEL WRITER FINALLY SEES UFO HERSELF By Kimberly Stevenson Since the first report of UFO sightings over Gulf Breeze, I have diligently watched the sky for a glimpse of these extraterrestrial visitors. A few times I thought I had seen somehting unusual, but still a bit of skepticism prevailed. However, last week, on April 27th, a Thursday night about 9:30, I routinely looked out my back door towards the City of Gulf Breeze, hoping again these UFOs would make an appearance so that I could see them. I was amazed to see something different in the sky. I walked out on my back deck, turning off the kitchen light as I stepped out and watched as a bright object shot at a tremendous speed down and diagonally across the sky. It then made a circular pattern, then shot straight up. The whole time it radiated colors from it that grew in intensity from white, to blue, to green, to red. No blinking lights just radiating colors of a nature I have never seen. I have lived in this area for seven years and have watched the sky on numberous occasions and am quite familiar with the air traffic in the sky. I am very familiar with aircraft of all sorts and know what an airplane, jet, helicopter and yes, the Goodyear Blimp look like in the sky. I can assure you that what I saw was not any of these. As I watched this object, which appeared to be right over the area of Shoreline Park, I reached inside the house and called an associate from work who came immediately to my house with a friend. I also called my neighbors next door, who came out on their balcony and watched the object and said that they could see two of them. We watched the object for at least 30 minutes. It sat in one spot for a very long time, then began to slowly descend and move westerly, towards Perdido. I called a friend, Kenneth Payne in Perdido who was at work. He went outside with two other co-workers and they all saw the bright object and confirmed it was moving slowly. This was a little after 10 p.m. Another young man on the beach was also watching the object and we talked on the phone with him as he looked at it though his binoculars; he too said he thought he saw more than one. He was not available for an interview at the time this story was written but will tell his story this week, along with other sightings he had on Saturday and Monday. I have written several stories about other people's experiences of UFO sightings and not always believed them, but I am sincerely convinced now that something strange is flying over Gulf Breeze. Many reports of sightings have been flooding into THE SENTINEL since last Thursday night. A report of a sighting on Tuesday night, May 2nd, was from a woman who wished to remain anonymous, called saying her and her family were eating at Pizza Hut when they saw a bright object, they left the restaurant and followed it up Highway 98 to Shoreline Park were several people were already there with binoculars watching it. One gentleman she said shared his binoculars with them. The woman reporting the sighting, whose son-in-law was a pilot, said he saw a shape. It had shining red, green, and white bright lights. The man with the binoculars told the group that he had seen the UFO on other occasions and when he saw it last week, it was so close and bright, he could not continue to look at it. Anyone else who has had sightings recently, please contact THE SENTINEL. If you are still a skeptic, like I was, start watching the sky, you might just see something that will change your mind. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Gulf Breeze Sentinel, May 11, 1989 UFO SIGHTERS SEE "MOVERS AND FLASHERS" By Kimberly Stevenson Since the reported sightings of unidentified flying objects on Thursday, April 27, Carla Yoder and her neighbor Kathy Deagle have been keeping a watchful eye on the sky. They were among the many people who reported the objects that appeared over Gulf Breeze. Now each night, they don their binonculars and stand at the end of their street in the Oriole Beach area looking for the extraterrestrial visitors. "Now the initial shock and fear are gone. Now it is just curiosity," Yoder said. Yoder has been keeping notes and diagrams of the movement and location of the shining lights, that radiate different colors and appear to move in different directions each night. They have seen them on April 27 and 29 and also May 1, 3, 5, and 6. Yoder wrote in her notes, "The days in between were too overcast and also on April 30 first noticed, looking straight up, an object just a small white light moving steadily across the sky. Saw this three more times on 5/5 and a shooting star. A flash of light with a tail." On April 27, as they watched the objects, they also noticed a lot of air traffic flying overhead, helicopters, prop airplanes and jets. The helicopters they said, appeared to be military, and circled over the area. The two neighbors have come to call the objects they are seeing "Movers and Flashers." The movers travel steadily across the sky and the flashers radiate color and move slowly. Yoder and Deagle plan to keep a vigil on the Gulf Breeze sky hoping to get a closer glimpse of these objects. "I wish one would come close enough for us to see what it is," Deagle said. "If it is something the military is doing, then I wish they would let us know," Yoder said as she lifted her binoculars towards the sky. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 11/19/88 Gulf Breeze Sentinel Article Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200824.11839@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:08:24 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 53 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3127 alt.conspiracy:8622 sci.skeptic:17702 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Gulf Breezes Sentinel Volume 28, Number 49 November 19, 1988 [The following letter was printed in the above periodical. It was accompanied by three photos showing an object with port hole like spots around it periphery. The quality is superb considering it is a photocopy of the original newspaper. Here in lies the story.] "To Whom it May Concern: On the night of November 11th I took the pictures you now see before you. I was reluctant at first to show them to any one but my family but my wife convinced me to show them to Ed. Ed in turn said that the photos should be shown to the press. That is why he is presenting them to you. I had just sat down to dinner when I saw the object from my window. I rushed to my bedroom to get my Polaroid. I rushed outside and started taking pictures. I got off four pictures (5,6,7,8) and then had to change film. I got one more good picture (1) before it shot straight up and disappeared. There may be some reasonable explanation for what I saw but I don't think so. The "ship" looked about the size of a small house. It was, however, quite some distance away and hard to tell. It hovered in the sky for several minutes and then left. It did not spin or rotate but it did seem to bob up and down while weaving slightly. It glowed from the bottom as if that may be the power source. The markings (windows?) on the top there appeared to be a dome or bump that was quite bright. There was nothing colorful about it - no flashing lights, no beams coming from it. None of that "Star Wars" stuff; it was just a dull gray-blue "thing". I don't think that it was military but you may want to check It was quite big and I don't think I was alone in seeing it. I wish to remain anonymous but if these photos and story spark any interest from your readership I may identify myself. I am a prominent citizen of the community however and need anonymity at this time. I know what I saw and would feel much better if I know if I was not alone. Let me reassure you that this is not a hoax. I saw what I saw, took pictures of it, and have given these pictures to you. I wish I could come forward but can not; for while I have nothing to gain, I have everything to lose. Thank you for your time and understanding." [End of article.] -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: UPI Dispatch about Gulfbreeze Sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov16.200942.11909@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:09:42 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 77 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3128 alt.conspiracy:8623 sci.skeptic:17703 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- UFO GROUP FASCINATED BY GULF BREEZES SIGHTINGS 02/28/88 GULF BREEZES, FL (UPI) [Via Moseley/Saucer Smear] -- A man who took 21 photos of objects he says are flying saucers and claims he has twice seen diminutive aliens has generated interest from a group that investigates UFO sightings. Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, in Texas says the Panhandle case is either an elaborate hoax or one of the most amazing encounters ever. The key is "Ed," a home builder with bizarre tales of encounters he claims are continuing. In the March edition of MUFON's "UFO Journal," investigators offer one possible explanation for why Ed is privy to sightings: aliens may have placed an implant in his head in an abduction years ago, and the implant is now being activated. Hoax or not, it's garnered a lot of interest from a local weekly. It all began when the Gulf Breeze Sentinel on Nov. 19 published Polaroid photos of a glowing object. The anonymous photographer claimed they were taken Nov. 11. He said he would come forward if others saw the same thing. The following week the paper published accounts from other residents who claimed they saw a similar object, and other photos taken by two other anonymous photographers. The newspaper has had nearly weekly updates ever since. This week the paper published a four-page insert with more photos and an open letter from "Ed." In addition to a picture purporting to show a UFO with a light beam shining down, the insert has a drawing of a 4-foot-tall alien with almond shaped eyes and carrying a silver wand. Two daily newspapers that previously ignored the sightings last week ran stories, and a local television station had a three-part series about Ed's sightings. The editor of the Gulf Breeze paper said he has talked to reporters from Miami and Orlando and the National Enquirer in Lantana. The photographs have been scrutinized by many people who claim to be photo experts. Some say they are the real thing, others say they are set up. None has said how they were doctored. Ed's reliability is the key, and he has made some incredible claims. The article in the MUFON publication said it was premature to make a judgment about the validity of the case, but does call the sightings an "incredible UFO photographic and CE-III (Close Encounter of the Third Kind) case." It describes in detail 13 alleged encounters "Ed" had. They range from hearing a "humming" in his head to a Jan. 12 incident where he claims he was stopped by a UFO that landed in front of his truck and saw five aliens approaching. He left, in great haste. On several other occasions, Ed claims he was caught in a blue beam that held him fast in place. Once it levitated him toward their craft, then let him go for reasons unknown. He has also told investigators he has heard voices, telling him not to be afraid and to stop resisting. He claims he is tipped off to the UFOs appearance by a humming sound in his head. Because of the humming sound, MUFON investigators have supplied Ed with a two-way radio so he can tell them when an experience occurs. He has done so, but so far no investigators have seen a UFO. The MUFON article ventured to theorize about why Ed has been singled out. "There is a possibility that Ed may have had an implant installed in his head at some time in his life" that was only recently activated, the article said. The MUFON article said it normally does not publish sighting reports until being thoroughly investigated. But it said it was making an exception because it is an "ongoing" case with continuing sightings. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: January 8, 1990 UFO Sighting in Gulfbreeze Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201103.11979@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:11:03 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3129 alt.conspiracy:8624 sci.skeptic:17704 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The UFO activity in Gulf Breeze, FL continues. According to a full page story in the GB Sentinel, several witnesses observed and photographed a UFO on January 8. (GB Sentinel, Jan. 11, 1990.) This time the witnesses included Duane Cook (Editor of the Sentinel) and his wife. Two photographs were published. One of the photos, taken by Chip Holston, appears to show "portholes" in the craft. The article in the paper gives the story as reported separately by seven different witnesses. After the UFO disappeared, numerous helicopters were observed in the same general area. =============================================================================== -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Articles by Ware, Duane Cook, Editor Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201226.12049@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:12:26 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 207 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3130 alt.conspiracy:8625 sci.skeptic:17705 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following brief articles appeared in the November 10, 1988 issue of The Sentinel, Gulf Breeze, Florida. This issue discusses some of the highlights of the UFO sightings that have occurred in the area over the past year. The first article is by the primary photographer "Ed". Others are written by: Donald Ware, Florida state MUFON director; and Duane Cook, editor of The Sentinel. The articles are reproduced here with the permission of The Sentinel. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S ANNIVERSARY On Nov. 11, 1987, as I opened the front door and stared at the glowing object partly obscured by several pine trees, I stepped into a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs. A phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here at home by dozens of our fellow residents. This reality may be hard to accept for those who have not had a sighting, so I do not try to convince or persuade. I have only reported my personal sightings and incidents as they happened. The resulting photographs and video tape I took of the UFO have been validated by computer imaging (Dr. Maccabee, physicist with the U.S. Navy). And, of course, there are otheres who feel differently and offer little other than opinions. When I was asked to use a 4 lens Nimslo 3-D sealed camera, I did. When I was asked to use the SRS (Self Referencing Stereo) camera, I did. The technical analysis of these photographs produced page after page of data with the end result detailing an object 14 foot in diameter at the bottom ring and 475 feet distant. The accusation of hoax came fast from those unable to say "maybe", and I was asked to take a lie detector test. Again the ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test. As the controversy swirled, I began to hear preposterous tales being spread by the debunkers about devil parties and "ultimate pranks," etc. Those of you who know me will certainly laugh at such claims, but the object was to discredit me in the eyes of those who don't know me. There was a very serious attempt to destroy my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances. Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me. Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors. Some of you may remember the front page headline "Expert says Photos a Hoax." The next day the "expert" publicly retracted his claim and apologized. A counterintelligence agency in Maryland was given an audio tape of me being interviewed. The resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner to doubt his (Ed's) answers." Soon I began to understand that no matter how many tests I was subjected to and how many times the photographs were analyzed, I was still open game for the out of town media and clearly a target to be ridiculed by the out of town debunkers. Many distant newspapers and TV crews played "hide and seek" with reporting the accurate details, and several times I have been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name. The official MUFON investigation was even infiltrated early by a debunker who took a liquid sample suspected to have fallen from the UFO for analysis only to issue a false report. Later the sample was analyzed by an independant lab with startling results. The debunker was exposed and fired in discredit. Another debunker from Central Florida has recently been exposed and is now being ignored by serious researchers. From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive and negative, continued to build in the media. The most troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so many sightings?" I can not explain the "why" questions, the most disturbing one being, "Why Me?" In an effort to understand, I have undergone a battery of pshchological profile tests followed by six hours of regressive hypnosis. The details of the hypnosis indicate previous encounters as far back as 11 years of age. I was the first to shake my head in confusion but have come to the adjustment that life goes on-- even life we may not understand. Thanks to all those who have stood up and reported what they saw. Thank you, Gulf Breeze for being a good neighbor. ------------------------------------------------------------------ GULF BREEZE UFO FROM THE INVESTIGATIVE PERSPECTIVE BY DONALD M. WARE During the past year, many residents in and around Gulf Breeze, FL have been part of a unique experience in this country. Over a hundred people reported objects that we could not identify as planes, planets, flares, etc.. Some reported seeing alien beings, and six reported blue beams coming from the UFO. One respected Gulf Breeze family had 22 encounters with UFOs, including 18 separate photographic sessions. These sessions produced 41 photographs of at least five different types of flying objects. Five different cameras were used providing sufficient data to determine the size of some objects. For example, one object photographed on 1 May 1988 was 14.8 (misprint?) feet high and had a light on the bottom that was 14.8 feet in diameter. I have seen over 60 photos of UFOs from this area. Investigations by Newspapers, TV and the Mutual UFO Network were generally accomplished without ridicule. This encouraged 12 people to tell of their UFO experiences that involved "missing time" or extremely strange dreams. Some of these people are having trouble coping with their experiences. MUFON established a support group including abductees, investigators, and a clinical psychologist to help reduce fear of the unknown. I think the support efforts, including time-regression hypnosis, have helped several who seem to have been inside a UFO understand their strange experiences. I suspect that the increasing national media coverage of the UFO phenomenon, spurred by the Gulf Breeze photos and sightings will cause many more abductees to gain the courage to talk about their experiences. Perhaps some will seek help in understanding what happened to them. I hope investigators and psychologists across the country will work together to provide this help. Some people have been unable to fully accept the reality of alien visitors, including some "armchair investigators." Perhaps the Gulf Breeze photos will help people across the country accept the reality described in the MJ-12 documents and other government disclosures. -------------------------------------------------------------------- TO CELEBRATE OR NOT TO CELEBRATE BY DUANE COOK How do you celebrate the anniversary of an event you are not yet sure was good? Well, maybe celebrate is not the appropriate term. Perhaps reminisce is a better word to apply to our thoughts and activities on this 1st anniversary of the now famous UFO sightings by "Ed" and others in and around Gulf Breeze. Initially we had no idea that printing Ed's photos would cause such a worldwide interest in our fair community. First, there were the wire services that broke the news worldwide with a brief account of the first sightings. Then came the National Enquirer with their offer to pay for the right to print the photos if NASA Scientists found them genuine. MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) got involved in the investigation early and became the authority to which the explosion of local sightings were referred. Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist under contract with the Navy, did the most extensive research on the Gulf Breeze sightings and photographs and has pronounced theEd lives here and they (the UFOs) just followed him here to continue their interaction with him as they have done at eight year intervals since he was a child? And what about the many other sightings we've had? Is it just coincidence that Charlie and Doris saw the same craft on the same night that Ed photographed it, thus assuring the Sentinel's unflinching support while maintaining its unquestioned credibility? Then there are the ministers, the teachers, the law enforcement officers, the district medical examiner and his wife, and even a city council member. Were these people just randomly in the right place at the right time, or is there an intelligent plan guiding the selection of who sees it and who doesn't? Whether we call it a celebration, a reminiscence, or a review, we all found it amazing that it's already been a whole year since it all started. And we wanted to share with you our thoughts and reflections on this most interesting year. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Reports by several others also appeared in this issue of The Sentinel but are not presented here. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 5/1/88 Gulf Breeze Report Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201351.12119@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:13:51 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 187 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3131 alt.conspiracy:8626 sci.skeptic:17706 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- GULF BREEZE, FLORIDA ACTIVITY SUMMARY (As of May 1, 1988) A. Biased one-sided investigation 1. The principal investigators have made public statements auth- enticating the photographs prior to the conclusion of the investi- gation. (Attachment #1, "For the Record" dated April 25, 1988) 2. Negative aspects of the reported events in and around Gulf Breeze, Florida have been restricted and covered-up by principal in- vestigators. In fact, the investigators have actually taken sides with the photographer of the objects to the point of furnishing that photographer with internal correspondence pertaining to the investig- ation and research of the reported events. (Attachment #2, corres- pondence referenced or distributed on a limited basis.) B. Questionable factors concerning principal witness/es 1. The principal witness made his initial report to the _Sentinel_ newspaper; not to an official agency such as the police department, for whatever reason he may give. This is a factor always considered when reviewing a UFO report. In the Hickson/Parker case, for exam- ple, the two witnesses went first to Keesler AFB, Mississippi and then to the local police department. (Report content) 2. No known person independent of the principal witness has report- edly observed the same object/s, despite the number of photographs taken, in presence of the photographer. 3. The witness has been writing and submitting manuscripts to Mr. Budd Hopkins' agent, Ms. Phyllis Wender, for possible publication of a book. (Correspondence from Mr. Donald Ware, Mr. Budd Hopkins and verbal confirmation by the photographer) 4. Some residents in the Gulf Breeze, Florida area have related a number of disturbing incidents in regard to the principal witness that causes concern to several investigators and researchers in the UFO phenomenon community. One example is a statement alleged to have been made during the summer of 1987 by the witness: "The Ultimate Prank". (Interview with sources by four witnesses.) 5. The witness has not impressed me, as well as other investigators and researchers, of having had a truly traumatic experience. (De- rived from several personal visits with the witness,a review of a fairly lengthy video tape and investigation report content) C. Conflicting and inconsistent characteristics to actual known pat- terns of the UFO phenomenon 1. The area in which the majority of related experiences are said to have taken place is a heavily populated residential and business location. The great majority of high quality UFO encounters occur in rural areas away from such populated areas. 2. The number of reports made by local residences were prompted pri- marily by the news media (assisted by the principal investigators). Flaps or waves (large distribution of sighting reports over a geo- graphical area) created by the phenomenon itself cover a larger area than what has occurred in the Gulf Breeze/Pensacola reports. This is additional evidence that the reports were primarily generated by the news media although some of the independent sighting reports may very well be legitimate reports. 3. Although one experience related by the witness involved an "at- tack" by the UFO as it moved over and in front of his vehicle (in an isolated location for that particular incident) there were no E/M effects reported. Also, the progression of events are dissimilar to other low level encounters in higher quality cases. 4. Repeated sightings and experiences related by the witness are similar to other questionable reports and "contactee" claims. In most high quality reports the witness experiences a single short duration encounter. In longer term encounters the witness/es often relate a time and/or memory lapse following the experience. 5. Repeated abilities by the witness of being able to resist the anomaly (UFO/occupants) have been claimed. This is contrary to the results of studies in the field. 6. Several similarities with Mr. Whitley Strieber's book _Commun- ion_ have been found. The most curious similarity is the related smell of "Cinnamon" with the Gulf Breeze report which can be found on Page 19 of Mr. Strieber's book. This is the only known reference to that smell in UFO literature to date. It is also of interest to note that the book _Communion_ was released during the winter/spring of 1987 and that on page 11 of Mr. Strieber's book he states: "I have never seen an Unidentified Flying Object." 7. The abundance of photographs taken by the witness is a negative aspect in itself contrary to the actual exhibits of the UFO phenom- enon. Most high controversy reports involve a large number of pic- tures -- especially when the photographer claims to be a contactee. 8. The majority of high-quality photographs depicting disc or vert- ically positioned cylindrical-shaped objects do not exhibit propul- sion units as shown in the Gulf Breeze, Florida photographs. 9. The objects depicted in the Gulf Breeze photographs are always tilted in a manner showing a portion of the base but never the top towards the camera. This is also a curious feature because of the number of photographs taken. D. Questionable factors concerning the photographs 1. The first 5 photographs taken on November 11, 1987 depict a rapidly darkening of the sky that is not consistent with the 3-4 minute duration that the witness related. 2. Accurate cloud movement data for the altitude depicted has not been completed although there are questions concerning the speed of the clouds in the first 5 pictures. Mr. Ray Stanford (PSI) informed me this date that he has reinstated has analysis of weather data and that information supported by documents from weather bureau stations will be provided in the near future. E. Inherent flaws with the depicted object/s 1. The circular base at the bottom of the object is tilted in a manner that creates a non-symmetrical ellipse. An ellipse must al- ways be symmetrical. There are, however, certain factors caused by the atmosphere and photographic lens that may reduce imaging the true symmetry of an ellipse. 2. There is an ambient light on the entire surface of the object depicted in the first 5 photographs (especially in photograph no. 5) that can not be easily attributed to sky light (reflected from clouds at a distance), the object itself, the moon, the sun, or local utility lighting. This indicates the possibility of artificial illumination by the photographer. 3. There is a distinct flaw at the base of the object on the out- side edge of the rim. This is evident in photograph numbers 11, 14, and 17. 4. In photograph number 16 inside the bottom base of the object a circular light is visible. There is a dimmed area visible at one portion of that circular light which is similar to a kitchen fluor- escent light where an electrical connection may be. Mr. Ray Stanford (PSI) is conducting comparative research with such lighting fix- tures. 5. There is possible evidence of an overlap between the object and a tree in photograph number 7. The object appears to be in front of the tree or integrated with the tree itself. Dr. Willy Smith is con- ducting analysis of this photograph as well as others. 6. The object depicted in the first 5 photographs appears to be non- symmetrical; that is, the upper and lower portions of the object are off-center from one another. This may be caused by reflections off of a glass surface or another form of medium between the object and the lens of the camera. 7. According to Dr. Willy Smith (UNICAT Project) there is at least one "window" that does not line up horizontally with adjacent "win- dows" on the object. 8. The spacing between the "windows" on the object are not propor- tional to one another horizontally. This is obvious to the unaided eye and measurements reveal mathematical inconsistencies contrary to good geometry. Robert D. Boyd CUFOS Investigator Coordinator MUFON State Director, Alabama /s/ May 1, 1988 -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Letter to Citizens of Gulfbreeze-Bob Oechsler Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201509.12210@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:15:09 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 109 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3132 alt.conspiracy:8627 sci.skeptic:17707 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following letter from UFO investigator Bob Oechsler appeared in the May 12, 1988 issue of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel. Reprinted by permission --------------------------------------------------------------------- "An Open Letter to the Citizens of Gulf Breeze" Dear Gulf Breeze Citizenry: For those who don't know me or my contributions to the investigation of UFO related activity in Gulf Breeze, I am a UFO Investigator/Reporter from the Annapolis, Maryland area. My involvement in your local sightings case has been quite extensive with well over 100 hours of research and telephone interviews with investigators, witnesses, photographers, meteorologists, path- ologists, technologists and the media. I've been reporting the events on radio in Baltimore and have included "live" interviews with Ed, Duane Cook and others. I have battled the skeptics and have reported my findings to the UFO Intelligence Community. During this period of time, I have had to investigate numerous sightings of UFO activity in the Annapolis Bay Bridge area which has served to limit my otherwise total involvement in the Gulf Breeze Sightings. Please be assured that not all "distant experts" are scientifically critical of the extraordinary events that have been occuring in your peninsula city. Before getting too far into this letter, allow me to set the record straight on one issue of significance to no one by myself. Mr. R--- S------- is not a resident of Annapolis, Maryland. You remember RS, the author of a report with a Strange Breeze blowing through his head whose Psychic Premonitions lead him to believe that The Sightings were all an elaborate hoax. Mr. RS resides and receives his mail in College Park, Maryland, some 35 miles from the quaint little peninsula capitol of the state of Maryland which so happens to be the city where I call home. And so now you see the reason for my interest in setting the record straight. It should be noted that statistically speaking, there are now on record over 50 sightings of UFO activity in the Gulf Breeze area that have no connection to the noted photographer Ed. There are now on record five photographers of UFO's only one of which has not been in direct contact with MUFON investigators. There is now re- ported to be a second video tape of a moving and hovering UFO; the photographer is in no way related to Ed. And, there are over 100 witnesses of sightings who have asked to file reports, with some accounts involving five and six witnesses. Remember the "Jan Tide" with the funny looking blimp of radar equipment floating about in Pensacola Bay that was suppose to leave in late January or early February? Well you may have noticed that it is still there over 90 days later. And, in case no one has noticed, there is now a similar companion vessel out there with the insignia NASA on the side. Let's also not forget about that cute little Army vehicle with the 150-foot telescoping RADAR globe that had to be moved out of Ft. Pickens due to excessive curiosity of visitors. A civilian employee of Pensacola NAS has reported that there are now 18 of those RADAR vehicles operating in the Gulf Breeze area. What does all of this mean? We're checking the records, but it is doubtful that there has been a significant increase in drug smuggling activity in the area. Why has the Network News Media taken such a hands-off approach to reporting these events outside of the Pensacola area? Is there Government INTEREST in this case of UFO activity? Is the Government turning some subtle screws to clamp down on exposing what's really happening here? If so, WHY? The answer may lie somewhere in the MJ-12 documents that I've enclosed with this letter. These documents have been available for over a year now, and have been widely published in their entirety in (among others) The Danville Newspapers in Pennsylvania and at least one major newsletter out of Cranston, Rhode Island. Experts who have researched these documents thoroughly say they are authentic. A memo from President Truman makes direct reference to the MJ-12 operation. There is more, much more, but this should be enough to encourage any doubters out there that UFO's are REAL. Their purpose is now fundamentally known. We may be powerless to stop it, although some experts feel otherwise. A letter to the President of the United States was mailed today along with correspondence to several members of congress and the Senate. The purpose is to seek official help in matters related to the Gulf Breeze Sightings. Matters that involve the purpose behind the visitations. Help is very much needed here. Although exceptionally competent as I stated in my report to the UFO Intelligence Community on April 21, 1988, there are but less than a handful of part-time qualified investigators available in the area to handle the massive workload. Scientific monitoring and evaluation by civilian technologists is all but vacant here, except for the exhaustive efforts of Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D. The reassuring hand of Budd Hopkins has been quite welcome therapy for those in need, but it is not nearly enough. Will help be on the way? We'll keep you posted as the gears and cogs of our bureaucracy oil up for action. The critics and skeptics will not be able to sweep this intrusion under the carpet with the guise of a hoax for long. Our prayers are with you and all whose lives have been changed forever. Bob Oechsler UFO Investigator/Reporter -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Statement from Bob Oechsler re Gulfbreeze Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201633.12281@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:16:33 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 199 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3133 alt.conspiracy:8628 sci.skeptic:17708 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The follow are two reports by UFO investigator/researcher Bob Oechsler, from Annapolis, Maryland. They provide insights and technical information relating to the Gulf Breeze, Florida UFO phenomena. The reports were received 9/22/88. DBC --------------------------------------------------------------------- THE GULF BREEZE PHOTOGRAPHIC SIGHTINGS CASE AS VIEWED FROM WITHIN THE INVESTIGATION One of the most often asked questions by investigators unfamiliar with the Gulf Breeze Case is to provide the single most compelling piece of evidence that proves the case valid. In the final analysis of the Gulf Breeze UFO photographic sightings case, it's not the photographs or the 8 mm home video of the flying UFO, or the landing site or any one particular sighting or piece of physical evidence that makes this case authentic. It's the people behind the story that make this case believable in spite of it's incredibility. The UFO phenomenon is rich in a foundation of historical documentation. This case has a certain uniqueness with no precedence in the literature. It has challenged the investigation team right to the core of their individual areas of expertise. Putting the case in perspective, however, has been an even greater challenge. There probably can be no singly conclusive piece of the puzzle that would validate the case. Given adequate resources someone probably could closely duplicate the photographic evidence. Missing, however, is any evidence that any of the principals in this case involving six months of active UFO sightings has the technological background, resources or ability to duplicate the evidence. So we must ultimately evaluate the human factors in which we are on firmer ground. We must ask ourselves can more than 135 witnesses be lying about what they saw, is it possible that a dozen well trained investigators and professionals be so naive and incompetent as to allow even a sophisticated hoax to go undetected under their very eyes for half a year. Are at least nine victims of missing time collectively hallucinating, and how can we deny the concerns of a mother whose three year old daughter has since last summer reported ghosts in her room, ghosts with big black eyes, who take her away and bring her back. And upon seeing photos of the UFOs the child told her mother that she'd seen that and had been in it! The evaluatable evidence in this case is abundant and available for close scrutiny. It is imperative to note that no specialist to date has been capable of duplicating even one single piece of the evidence, and I've personally witnessed a number of such attempts. One day someone will inevitably duplicate some of the evidence as will we one day be capable of duplicating the technology many have witnessed this year. But for now we must consider, has an alien culture from the stars initiated a long awaited Glasnost Policy of their own. If indeed that is the case, what will it mean to our society and the rest of the peoples of the Planet Earth in the years to come! Broadcast Reporter Bob Oechsler Investigator/Researcher Annapolis, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- INVESTIGATIVE ANALYSIS The photographic and video taped evidence in the Gulf Breeze case was brought to my attention approximately two months after the first reported sightings of UFO activity on November 11th of 1987. An exhaustive series of polygraph tests were conducted on the primary photographer in the case, one of five known to the investigative staff. It seemed pertinent under the circumstances that additional methods be employed to verify the veracity of the witnesses. Following a background check of the primary photographer with his verbal permission, various investigation interviews were subjected to Voice Stress Analysis using state of the art Psychological Stress Evaluator equipment operated by one of the nation's top expert analysts. There were no reactions in the analysis that would indicate that any of the three witnesses interviewed were telling anything short of the truth about what they observed. Meteorologic and Site Survey analyses were performed as a check against the details reported for the first photographic sighting. The conclusion verified that the photographs were likely to have been taken on the day and time period reported as no other similar conditions existed over a two week period prior to publication of the photographs. An investigation into the photographic equipment used was conducted through field tests and close consultation with Polaroid Corporation engineers. It was determined that the camera used through February 7th could perform double exposure techniques with the 108 type film. Investigators provided the witness with a 35mm Nimslo stereo camera and employed controls that were not subsequently breached as determined following inspection of the camera and film after a photographic sighting. A more sophisticated Polaroid Sun 600 camera was purchased on March 7th. The following day the camera was first used during a photographic sighting opportunity. It was determined by the Polaroid engineers that a double exposure was possible but extremely difficult to effect. On March 17th a second Polaroid Sun 600 camera was combined with the first in a stereo array to create a parallax for measuring the distance and size of objects by comparing two photographs taken simultaneously. The degree of difficulty in a double exposure had now increased beyond reasonable proportions. The final piece of equipment used was a Sony 8mm home video camera with sound and without zoom capability. A one minute and thirty eight second two part video tape was shot on December 28th. An extensive analysis of the two part video tape was started in March and continues today. Various enhancement techniques were performed at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. Among those tests a variable speed element was employed to make tapes for viewing the entire tape at one tenth speed. A Sony Video Editor model BVU820 was used with a digital time base corrector to supply a direct signal to a Video Hard Copy Unit made by Tektronix, model 4632. The thermal printer generated photo images of both phases of each frame. A ten second portion of the video tape requires 600 single copy prints. Each print is measured to define altitude, flight path, rotation characteristics, frequency of beacon lights, ring aberrations, attitude in flight, air speed/velocity, acceleration/deceleration and an analysis of direction reversals. A preliminary analysis of the audio track indicated that no sound could be identified with the object. More sophisticated equipment is being sought. A preliminary analysis concludes that the object observed in the video tape closely resembles objects photographed with the Polaroid cameras. The object has a clockwise or left to right rotation. The dome or beacon light blinks on and off at no consistent rate or pattern and displays a variable luminosity with each cycle. The object loses altitude moving to the left of the camera just prior to blinking out. A ghost image appears in the first phase of the next frame approximately two object widths to the right that may be related but is apparently not visible through the transmission medium. There are certain restrictions in the evaluation of the video tape. Due to the horizontal resolution lines, we are viewing the object through what is analogous to jail bars turned sideways. Nonetheless it appears conclusive that the bottom or power source light has a variable luminosity characteristic which is not synchronic with the beacon light on top of the object. As an experienced robotics technician I've built many remote controlled devices in the past ten years. As a prototype designer I am well versed in exotic techniques used to operate various sizes of apparatus from very small to very large using sometimes inexpensive semi-automated frequency controlled equipment. The specifications detailed in this case, most notably the absence of audible sound from the UFO craft in the 8mm home video and the rotational characteristic, create enormous difficulty when an attempt is made to re-create what is observed by constructing a model to examine the technology. Further research is continuing in many areas relating to this photographic sightings case. It is quite clear to this investigator that we are examining a truly anomalous technology. On May 9th, 1988, I initiated an official appeal for assistance through the Office of the President of the United States and various members of the Sanate and House of Representatives. Government or at least military interest in the events that were occurring in Gulf Breeze, Florida was quite apparent in light of newspaper reports bearing photographs of vessels with elaborate radar gear, military vehicles with telescoping radar gear (all deployed in the vicinity of the sightings) and a reported visit to the primary photographer's residence by purported officials requesting original photographic materials. Responses received from the Office of the Secretary of the Navy revealed concern over evidence of federal airspace rules violations, responses from congressional representation revealed concern over human rights violations. The Office of the Chief of Naval Operations (Air Warfare) ultimately declined to investigate citing scarce Navy financial and personnel resources. It might be interesting to note that in a civilian capacity, Navy physicist, Dr. Bruce S. Maccabee conducted an extensive photo analysis of the evidence and found no evidence contrary to the existence of anomalous objects in the photographs. Bob Oechsler UFO Investigator, Researcher, Broadcast Reporter Annapolis, Maryland -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Film Crew Watch UFO In Gulf Breeze, FL Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201800.12351@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:18:00 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 63 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3134 alt.conspiracy:8629 sci.skeptic:17709 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ News-Wire ~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: 01-30-91 22:27 From the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, by Bruce Morrison. ABC JOINS LOCAL UFO SKY WATCH The Los Angeles based production company, Ohlmeyer Productions, working on the ABC special, "America's Best-Kept Secrets," joined a local UFO sky watch on Friday night, January 11, 1991, and filmed the frequently-seen "red light" over Gulf Breeze. The cameraman, Ron Ladd, said, "It was a long distance away illuminating the clouds and traveling very slowly to the east. It just appeared from within the clouds and after a minute or so it disappeared. I caught it on film. It was sometimes very bright and then would fade, maybe because of the clouds." An earlier witness Jeff Lawrence said, "What we saw on November 11, 1990 looked like the UFO that Ed Walters photographed three years ago. I know what we saw." Eight local area residents were also present during the sighting along with the production company's producer, Jeff Androski, and former NASA systems specialist Robert Oechsler. Mr. Oechsler was the first to see the glow of the UFO as it appeared beneath the clouds. Mr. Oechsler is here on assignment from Washington and is an expert in remote controlled mechanics and photo analysis. He was equipped with infrared film to photograph the unidentified red object and said, "I have tried to consider all the options to this Gulf Breeze mystery. I would like to explain it away as a military aircraft, balloons, flares, temperature inversions, or hoax, but none of these options hold up under scientific study. Balloons don't travel opposite the wind, flares don't change color or hover motionless and I can assure you that what I saw and filmed over Gulf Breeze was not an airplane of helicopter. I have designed some very sophisticated remote control systems but duplicating the soundless flight and brightness of this unknown object would be next to impossible. I can only say that I don't know what it is." The ABC special will air in February. One segment will present information about the mysterious grass circles in Gulf Breeze Shoreline Park along with the unidentified flying red object that dozens of local residents continue to photograph. =END= -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Message Thread-Camera Ed Walters Used Message-ID: <1991Nov16.201919.12421@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:19:19 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 294 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3135 alt.conspiracy:8630 sci.skeptic:17710 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- (1226) Fri 22 Jun 90 10:02 By: John Hicks To: John Burke Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze St: Reply chain 1007 1331 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01d8f3a6 @MSGID: 1:363/29 6b09d1a3 > John: The thing that really makes me suspicious about those > "Shoreline Park" photos is that even though there were > "witnesses" in the area (Duane Cook from the Sentinel -- and his > wife -- and at least one other person) *noone* saw the UFO that > Ed photographed. I think it was Duane who had occaision to > actually see the camera flash -- without seeing *any* UFO. > So we have "eyewitnesses" but what did they witnesses? -- We have six witnesses in addition to Ed and Frances. Duane and Dari were driving away only to turn around and head back, while the others were for all practical purposes *hiding* behind a restroom building. Ed was hiding in a clump of bushes so that anyone who wandered up wouldn't pester him. Anyway, based on where the witnesses said they were, and where Ed said he was, they couldn't see him or the ufo because their view was blocked by the building and trees. They could, however, see the treetops above Ed. When he fired the flashes, they saw the flashes against the treetops. All the witnesses said they saw the flashes light the treetops, but didn't see a ufo. All they actually witnessed was the film being loaded into the cameras, the flashes going off, and then the pictures developing. That the pictures they saw developed was the same film that was loaded into the cameras was verified. There's no way to swap a previously-prepared filmpack for what was loaded without resetting film counters *and* having a different serial number. According to the witneses, there was only a couple of minutes Ed and Frances were alone, hence no time to hang or otherwise fiddle with models etc. Placement of models or turning the tripod would have to be *exact* or the stereo effect of the two cameras would give it away. So, although the witnesses didn't see a ufo, they do provide confirmation that the film loaded into the cameras wasn't prepared in advance, that the filmpacks weren't switched, that there was no time to mess with models etc., and that whatever appeared in the developing pictures is what Ed photographed when he fired the cameras. Either that or all present were in on a hoax, and there's no evidence at all toward that. If you can figure out a feasible way to hoax that incident, we're all listening. My brain's tired. ;-) (1239) Sat 23 Jun 90 0:33 By: John Hicks To: Pete Porro Re: CAMERAS St: Reply to 1199 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01d1f3c5 @MSGID: 1:363/29 6b806b54 > I read one account that Ed used a twin 35mm camera rig for the > paralax and pseudo stereo. I have seen references to the Nimslo > camera but is this in fact one of the types he used? If so it > gives the best effect on close photos, after about 20 feet there > is not much stereo effect. A Nimslo was in fact used. Maccabee used the images from the outer lenses as the baseline for his parallax measurements. He reached the conclusion that the baseline was long enough for calcualtions of distance out to about 20 feet, but no farther. He did calculate, though, that the object photographed with the Nimslo was more than 20 feet away. As far as clear photos, I've noticed one thing in common among many of the other folks who've taken ufo photos which show blurs and streaks. They usually have their cameras loaded with fairly slow film; that is, ISO 400 or slower. Also, since they don't have the foggiest idea of what a proper exposure would be, they just leave the camera's autoexposure system set on automatic. The camera meter "sees" all that black sky, ignores the tiny light, and automatically gives an exposure of several seconds duration. Also, the cameras are just about always handheld. The result is a large blur and/or a streak. Ed got the exact same results with his new camera, which is a Canon A1 with a long zoom lens. According to Maccabee, Ed was unconciously setting an exposure of about 1/2 to 1 1/2 seconds with his old Polaroid simply by the way he was pressing and releasing the shutter button. The shape of the Polaroid makes it fairly easy to handhold for those durations. The pictures aren't all that incredibly sharp, but not bad. That is, they're not as sharp as the camera is capable of. (1312) Sat 23 Jun 90 14:35 By: John Hicks To: All Re: GB pix St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01dd0c57 @MSGID: 1:363/29 6b8e6706 I have come up with a method by which Ed's pictures 36L and 36R could have been hoaxed. There is, however, no evidence that points toward a hoax. I had a very long conversation with Bruce Maccabee this morning, and he agrees that my hoax method is workable. We now have a situation in which every one of Ed's ufo pictures could be hoaxed. Not very easily, but could be. I'd also discovered a factor that may have nailed an unwitting hoaxer dead, but concrete evidence satisfied the requirements of that factor to *not* prove a hoax. Recently a person has said publicly that he helped Ed hoax pictures, and the person has, at least privately, shown some ufo pictures. Maccabee said he has some of the pictures. He said that he has disproved the hoax method described by the person on eight technical points. In other words, the pictures the person presented *could not* have been hoaxed the way the person said they were. We're then forced to conclude that the pictures are real, and that the person is sustaining a lie he told two years ago. To clarify, the person apparently took real pictures and then lied that they were fake, for personal reasons. (1518) Mon 25 Jun 90 1:27 By: John Hicks To: John Burke Re: Re: CAMERAS St: Reply to 1514 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01d1b217 @MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8111f6 > re: The "Nimslo Object" (or "NO UFO") -- don't forget to point > out that Maccabee calculated this object to be approximately 2.5 > feet in diameter. Don't forget that the same object appeared later in an SRS camera pair, and the size matched up within a reasonable amount. The parallax calculations also showed that the object was *no more* than about 40 feet away. The object was close enough to show parallax. Can you explain how a model (or whatever) could have been moved so precisely that the size was consistent in two different stereo photo pairs? The only way to hoax it I can think of is to suspend the model in a dark room at least 20 feet long and photograph it, then do that again with the SRS rig. > Of course, if this were any other case, such > a finding would spell the end of it, since most people would cry > "Model!". Do you know the acceptable size range of ufos? If you do, please tell us how you came by this information. > But ... since this is the sacred Gulf Breeze case we must all > "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" -- John There's at least a few of us paying a hell of a lot more attention than you realize. I've enlarged the hoax possibility to include *all* of Ed's pictures, and that's on a provable, demonstrable technical basis, while previously they were all hoaxable except for one pair. However, all I've proven is that it's *possible* that the pictures were hoaxed, and that at least one possible hoax method is known for *each* picture. Neither I, nor anyone else, has *proven* a hoax. Until that happens, the possibility that Ed's pictures are true ufo pictures as claimed *cannot be dismissed*. If you read Bruce Maccabee's analysis, if you hear him speak, or if you talk with him on the phone, he says (and has said all along) that a hoax is a possibility, but no one's been able to prove it. In the absence of proof of a hoax, you need to proceed as if the pictures are real, while continuing to look for evidence of a hoax. Now, I'm certainly not trying to start any kind of battle over this stuff. You may notice that in one sentence I may be saying something that supports Ed's case while in the next sentence I'm chipping away at it. I had something a couple of days ago that would have proven a hoax beyond a shadow of a doubt, concrete proof, if certain numbers hadn't matched up, but it turns out they match up perfectly. The reason the numbers were so important is that *none of the investigators knew what they meant*. If I come up with solid, undebatable proof of a hoax, you'll most likely read about it right here first. The same will happen if I come up with the same sort of proof that they're real. BTW, I know I sound sorta proud of my hoax possibility theory. I am. Only took me about two months to think it up, when it should have been obvious right away. ;-) (1519) Mon 25 Jun 90 1:29 By: John Hicks To: John Burke Re: Re: Ed Walters St: Reply chain 1334 1520 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01d1b21b @MSGID: 1:363/29 6c81761f > re: >Also that the father and son are anonymous. > That's not true. The father and son have been on the local TV > station (WEAR?). The father is a GB lawyer who is on the City > Council. They have polaroids that were taken with Ed's camera > of the same models that appear in Ed's Book. -- John You are correct. While they were a very short time ago anonymous phone callers, they aren't anonymous any more. Bruce Maccabee told me that he has proven on *eight technical points* that the photos could not possibly have been faked in the manner the young man claims. Since this would be independently verifiable, I take Maccabee's word for it. (1524) Mon 25 Jun 90 13:33 By: John Hicks To: Jim Delton Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze St: Reply chain 1517 1525 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01dc2586 @MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d29ce > Why was Ed using a Flash to take photos of something flying in > the sky?? Maccabee found that Ed was unconciously setting a shutter speed of around one second with his first Polaroid. Actually, what happens is that the camera will autoexpose until it reaches the limit of its dim-light range, then the shutter will simply stay open until you let go of the shutter button. Ed was doing the very common thing of giving the shutter button a real good press, for whatever reason most snapshooters do. As for flash, consider all the people who use their little cameras with their little flashes at, for instance, a night football game. They don't know any better. In the original Polaroid, the flash isn't linked to the camera in any way except for the firing connection; that is, it doesn't affect any other camera operations. If you see the originals, they're all actually extremely dark, as if they're underexposed by several stops. As for the second Polaroid type (Sun 600), you get the flash whether you want it or not. It's built-in, and if the camera meter determines flash is needed, it fires the flash. No choice in the matter. Also, the shutter speed is limited to a minimum speed; probably about 1/15 second. Maccabee told me, but I forgot exactly what it was. The pictures taken with the Sun 600 cameras are much darker than the original series of Polaroids, which is consistent with a limited minimum shutter speed but somewhat faster film. The "light-blasting" technique used for the pictures in the book consists of holding the original print up to direct sunlight and photographing it. Works sorta like a transparency, in that detail that's almost lost in the dark is brought out. Unfortunately, this extreme lightening of the images mostly so they could be reproduced in the book has given a false impression of how the pictures look. They're really very dark. As for the Nimslo, the images of the lights, whatever they are, are actually quite sharp and very small. They do, however, show parallax. That indicates that the object was not so far away that the parallax would be unmeasurable. If the object was, say, 500 feet away the amount of parallax would probably be less than the size of the film grain or the resolving power of the lens/film combination. That is, it would be unmeasurable. The baseline (distance between the outer lenses) of the Nimslo wasn't large enough for accurate measurements for an object farther than about 20 feet away. You could clearly prove, for instance, that an object was between, say 30 and 60 feet away, but you couldn't measure more accurately than that. Thus the SRS. Maccabee said he was musing aloud about how to make a stereo camera with a significantly larger baseline, and that Ed surprised him by building one. The first version had the wiggles, so it couldn't really be used, but the second version was much more stable. However, the stick (which made it self- referencing) still had the wiggles so had to be discounted. The concept was great, but the execution left a little to be desired. Anyway, Ed did get a shot of the Nimslo object in the same frame pair with another object with the second version of the SRS. Its size for the calculated distance was consistent with the frame pair from the Nimslo. *continued* (1525) Mon 25 Jun 90 13:39 By: John Hicks To: Jim Delton Re: Re: Ed Walters/Gulf Breeze St: Reply to 1524 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:116b 01dc258a @MSGID: 1:363/29 6c8d8e52 As for why not giving Ed a sealed 35mm camera for all the shots. The explanation was that no one had (or was willing) to, for all practical purposes, give away a personal camera that they owned. The Nimslo was previously obtained for $25 from a camera store by an investigator who thought there might eventually be some use for the thing. It's not the camera I'd have picked for the purpose. A Stereo Realist is a much more accurate camera with a much wider baseline, but then we're talking about buying a camera for about $200 for one in good condition, and giving it to someone for an unknown length of time. Would you be willing to do that? Also, there are problems with both these cameras. The Nimslo is designed to provide four images to be used in a proprietary process that produces lenticular 3D prints, similar to 3D postcards. The Stereo Realist is designed to duplicate the baseline of the human eyes and provide a stereo pair of slides to be viewed in a viewer, like the old viewers which showed 3D views using a disc of transparencies. In any event, they don't have a larger baseline than human vision, and that simply isn't large enough. jbh --- FD 1.99c * Origin: Paranet NU-DELTA(sm) Orlando, Fla. (407)649-4136 (1:363/29) -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Japanese Film Crew Film UFO, May 10, 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202024.12491@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:20:24 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 50 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3136 alt.conspiracy:8631 sci.skeptic:17711 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- From the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, May 16, 1991........ On May 10, 1991, I, Jun-ichi Yaoi and my Japanese film crew arrived in Gulf Breeze in the hope of documenting the local UFO sightings. NIPON television network, the largest/oldest commercial broadcasting company of Japan, sponsors our investigative documentary to be aired as part of the two-hour special nationwide in Japan. Bob Oechsler, a former NASA systems specialist, from WAshington, D.C., accompanied us as a consultant to advise and analyse any evidence that we might be able to capture on film. At approximately 11:30 p.m. Bob Oechsler told us that a "red UFO" had been sighted to the northwest of the Holiday Inn where we were staying. We were preparing for bed but we quickly got our cameras and set up a "sky watch" near the hotel swimming pool overlooking the Pensacola Bay. Fifteen or twenty minutes passed. Then, out over the water, a bright red object suddenly appeared. The sky was clear over Gulf Breeze and the Bay, with most of the rain clouds still visible over Pensacola. What we saw and filmed was amazing! It was brilliant and I must say, beautiful. As recorded on our 36 to one zoom lens, the UFO moved to the northeast for one minute and twenty seconds before suddenly winking out and the returning for a few seconds as a small white ball of light which then also winked out. Our film of the UFO clearly shows a circular ring of red "energy" with a center glowing orange core. It will be further analyzed to identify any structure. We have interviewed dozens of local witnesses who have taken video and photos of the UFO but we are particularly impressed with the similarity with photographs taken by Ed Walters in 1988. Jun-ichi Yaoi, director 5-7, Kojimachi, Chiyoda-ku Tokyo, Japan -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Bruce Maccabee Ltr to Gulf Breeze Sent 7/5/90 Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202138.12561@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:21:38 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 283 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3137 alt.conspiracy:8632 sci.skeptic:17712 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following is a letter to the editor that was printed in the GULF BREEZE SENTINEL on Thursday, July 5,1990. It was written by Bruce Maccabee in answer to a letter to the editor from Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Gray. I thought it might be of interest to those who didn't make it to the MUFON Symposium. Dear Editor: Ed Gray may know how to govern the town of Gulf Breeze, but he obviously knows little about the UFO subject. He claims that he knew early on (over two years ago) from "logic and common sense" that the Walters sightings were a hoax, yet he admits that he had "no conclusive proof the sightings of Ed Walters were fabricated." However, the lack of conclusive proof did not prevent him from making, about two years ago, a public statement that he believed the sightings to be a hoax. He does not explain the "logic and common sense" that led to his statement. However, I suspect that what he really means is that, SO FAR AS HE KNOWS, UFOS DON'T EXIST and hence photos of them must be fakes. If he had studied the subject more, or had paid more attention to the reports of many of his own constituents, he might have been less positive in his conclusion. Perhaps he should talk to Ken Fortenberry, the Managing Editor of the Pensacola News Journal regrading the reality of UFOs. He claims that the "many other sightings by well respected citizens," sightings which he couldn't dispute, were a result of "the power of suggestion and the very real occurrences of so much air traffic in our area." As experienced UFO investigators know, this sort of explanation can account for some sightings of the "night lights" or "daylight disc" type in which the witness' description is vague or differs only slightly from descriptions of conventional objects in the sky. However, this cannot explain sightings of distinctively unusual objects with strange flight dynamics (e.g., able to hover silently at low altitude), nor can it explain reports of daytime or nighttime sightings, sometimes by many witnesses at once, of structured objects which are distinctively shaped UNLIKE conventional objects. Mayor Gray says that during the two years between his first public statement and the present time he was dismayed to see the Walters sightings being turned into a book since he knew it was a hoax. He claims that he received numerous phone calls about the subject and either mentioned his opinion that it was a hoax or else he "declined to discuss it because I was fed up with the topic." Perhaps "being fed up with the topic" prevented him from reading any of the generally available literature on the subject and thus informing himself about the nationwide and worldwide occurrences of sightings by all sorts of people. If he attends the MUFON symposium (He didn't!) he will learn how seriously this subject is treated by scientific investigators from around the world. Mayor Gray says that the first "break" came with the discovery of the model. He attempts to explain how this discovery came about by suggesting that Ed "miscalculated how safely buried under insulation in his former residence's attic the model of the UFO would be. He didn't want to chance the model being discovered should he move it and thus left it there, or he carelessly forgot about it since it had been several months since he had used it." That the Mayor should try to "rationalize" the discovery of the model is understandable (he must have some justification for how it happened to still exist and be found), but his rationalization is silly. If Ed's sightings were a hoax based on that model than he is a "genius" in carrying it off thus far. It is hard to imagine that this genius would be so stupid as to simply hide incriminating evidence under insulation. It is much more likely that he would destroy it. Even Tommy Smith, the formerly anonymous witness against Ed, realizes that (assuming Ed hoaxed the photos) Ed would not let any incriminating evidence be found. He states in his testimony (the truth of which is not proven) that "Ed was pretty careful with that stuff. Anything he was worried about he usually burned." But as Mayor Gray listened to Mr. Smith he somehow missed this clue that Ed would have burned any models. We now know that the model is not evidence against Ed. Not only is it clearly not what appears in Ed's photos, but it didn't even exist before September 1989, about two years after Ed's first photos. (I don't expect the mayor to now claim that Ed made a model in September 1989, nearly two years after his reported sightings and than hid it in the house which he hadn't lived in since December 1988.) Apparently the testimony by Tommy Smith was the "last straw" for Gray who decided to once again, and forcefully this time, state his position. Although this testimony was convincing to Gray, I have found ten items that are discussed in the testimony which have technical errors. I will mention just three. I would not expect Mayor Gray to have realized the errors in the first two of these items, but I should think that one or both of the reporters would have realized there was something "fishy". On the other hand, even the Mayor, I should think, would have questioned the third item. The first items were the subject of a letter I sent on June 18th to the Pensacola News Journal. One item has to do with the explanation of how the model was supposedly supported while Ed photographed it. According to Mr. Smith, and more or less as illustrated in the PNJ (Sunday, June 17), Ed had a "tripod set up with a flashlight pointing straight up," and sitting on the flashlight "was part of a PVC pipe that was black and he had it sliced at an angle, and he would tape the spaceship on top and the flashlight would shine up and illuminate the spaceship." This method of mounting the model would block the back side of the "power ring" at the bottom of the model from the direct view of the camera. Hence every one of Ed's photos, if made this way, would show a rather wide black gap in the more distant part (the lowest portion in the photos) of the "power ring." I suggest the reader look at the pictures in Ed's book to see in how many cases the complete ring is visible. The light coming up through the pipe would directly illuminate the top of the model leaving the bottom relatively dark (depending upon the exact size of the pipe relative to the model), in contrast to the actual photos which have a very bright bottom. The second item involves the Nimslo stereo camera. According to Mr. Smith, "from what he (Ed) told me, he went out and took a picture of an airplane landing at night." This explanation is completely contradicted by the photographic data. First, the images recorded by the camera do not at all look like an airplane at night. Second, the stereo effect (parallax) created by the two outer lenses of the camera show that the photographed object was no more that 100 ft. from the camera (the actual range estimate is 40 to 70 feet). At that range the length of the object, as determined by the length of the image and the camera optics, was less than 6 feet. An airplane full of micromidget UFOnauts perhaps? The above information on the results of the analysis of the Nimslo photos has been available for two years in a document published by the Fund for UFO Research entitled "A History of the Gulf Breeze Sightings." More importantly, the size information was immediately available to the reporters for comparison with Smith's testimony because it is on page 301 of The Gulf Breeze Sightings by Ed and Frances Walters. (Reporter Myers told me he had read the book.) The third item is one that almost anyone who has a lawn can understand. When asked about how Ed created the circle of dead grass in the field behind his house, near the high school, Mr. Smith said, "If I remember correctly, he told me that he turned a small trampoline upside down for a while and jumped up and down on it." This is patently ridiculous. Aside from the fact that a 13 foot diameter circle would require more than a "small trampoline" to cover it, the grass in that circle was somehow killed during the winter (the circle was discovered in February 1988) and remained dead for several months as the grass around the circle turned green and grew during the spring. I have a photograph taken in May showing the circle still brown. At the time that the circle was found there was a suggestion that some chemical was used to kill it, but no residue was found. One would think that as silly an explanation as this would have at last raised the eyebrows of all who were listening. What led Mr. Smith to claim, in all seriousness, apparently, the latter two explanations for the Nimslo photos and the circle? According to Mr. Smith, Ed TOLD him. Yet these explanations (airplane and trampoline) CANNOT BE TRUE. Hence there must have been fabrication on someone's part. There are several possibilities, two of which are: (a) Ed admitted to Smith that he (Ed) faked the Nimslo photos and faked the circle, yet Ed lied to Smith about how he faked them; (b) Ed told the complete truth to Smith but Smith, for some reason, didn't tell the complete truth to the interviewers, (c) Ed told the complete truth to Smith but Smith forgot what Ed had told him and made up explanations on the spot to satisfy the interviewers. None of these explanations for Smith's statements makes any sense, If he didn't remember what Ed had said, why not simply say, "I don't know." If Ed trusted Mr. Smith so explicitly as to admit to him that he faked the Nimslo photos and the circle, then why wouldn't Ed tell him exactly how the fakes were done? (Why hide the true explanations from Mr. Smith who, according to Smith, had watched Ed create double exposures fakes?) On the other hand, if Ed told Mr. Smith how the fakes were done, then why wouldn't Mr. Smith tell the investigators? There is, of course, at least one other possible reason for why Mr. Smith told the investigators about the "airplane and trampoline" explanations. I suppose that the reader can imagine what it is. Mr. Gray says that he wrote the published letter while "in route back from meeting an accomplice to Ed Walters...", Hank Boland. Hank was the only non-Walters family member mentioned by Smith as being involved in the hoax. Hank has vehemently denied any involvement in a hoax and instead has testified that he, too, saw the UFO. This testimony was first recorded by the MUFON investigators in February 1988. His testimony was "voice stress analyzed," with no stress being found at key points in his testimony. One would think, considering the gravity of this matter, that Hank's rejection of Mr. Smith's testimony (which leaves Mr. Smith as the only person claiming to have first hand knowledge of the hoax) would at least give Mr. Gray some cause to question Smith's testimony. However, it apparently didn't phase the Mayor. He simply got around Hank's testimony by accusing him of being one of Ed's accomplices. Furthermore he explains Hank's being "dragged deeper into Ed Walters' ploy" as the "greed factor". Mr. Smith had already testified that Hank was "to get all movie or TV rights." But if this is so, where is Hank's money? (I'm sure he'd like to know.) One would think that Hank, if he had made a deal with Ed and Ed didn't follow through, would be WILLING to testify against Ed. According to Mr. Gray, Hank was not the only accomplice; Ed's whole family was involved. I expect that Ed's family members will have something to say about this. Mr. Gray is confident that the news media will report the fine details of how the hoax was carried off because "they must save face in the fact that they were taken in by the scheme as were so many others." No doubt the news media will publish all sorts of details, including those which support Ed's testimony. Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON investigators for "being so wrapped up and biased in pursuit of the story that they fell headfirst into that trap." He is clearly not aware that this investigator, at least, started off assuming that the photos were faked and that the whole story was a fabrication. He could read the last chapter in Ed's book (or even the first few pages of that chapter) to find out how I approached the case. The MUFON investigation required many hundreds of man hours of analysis and study of the photographic evidence testimony and a similarly intensive study of Ed and his activities over a six month period (Nov. 1987 - May 1988). The MUFON investigation included the reports of over a hundred other witnesses in the area. Only after all of this exhaustive effort did MUFON officially endorse the case. By way of contrast, the Mayor relied on "logic and reason" (unbiased, of course) and the testimony of one person, Smith (who is contradicted by another person, Boland!) The mayor's "unbiased"approach comes through forcefully in the transcript of the conversation with Mr. Smith, which has been published by The Sentinel. At the very beginning the Mayor thanked Mr. Smith for coming forward ("I can't tell you how much I appreciate...you getting with us...") and then said he wanted to "get to the bottom of this whole issue and this whole, in my opinion, hoax." The Mayor then said "...but right now we're trying to deal with the facts." Mr. Gray criticized the MUFON investigators for having "no expertise at investigation." On the other hand, the interview of Mr. Smith is not exactly a model of good investigatory technique. Mr. Gray is a courageous man and a clairvoyant. He knows he is in for an argument and he correctly predicted in his letter that his statement would bring forth an avalanche of comments from "Ed, his supporters, and MUFON members aimed at discrediting not only persons who are coming forth, but me as a skeptic in the public eye." What Mr. Gray should realize is that information which deserves to be discredited will be discredited. Those who loudly proclaim discredited information will have to suffer the consequences. At the beginning of his letter the Mayor says he is thankful that he has been fortunate to serve in public office as Mayor for the last six years. I suggest that if he wishes to remain in that position for another six years he should stick to the city budget and ignore the UFO controversy raging around him. s/Bruce Maccabee -END- -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Recap Of Gulf Breeze, Florida Sightings/Ed Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202338.12632@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:23:38 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 348 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3138 alt.conspiracy:8633 sci.skeptic:17713 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- (628) Wed 6 Jun 90 22:49 By: Jim Speiser To: All Re: Gulf Breeze at NUFOC 1/5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:09ff 14c6b620 @MSGID: 1:114/37 6316d312 The following article was submitted by ParaNet Sysop John Hicks, and will also be circulated as the file NUFOC90.TXT. Copyright (c) 1990 John Hicks and ParaNet. The Gulf Breeze mystery continues by John B. Hicks The Gulf Breeze sightings have generated huge amounts of public speculation, scientific bickering and dirty tricks. However, many people in the Pensacola, Florida, area still see odd objects and lights in the sky. The recent publication of The Gulf Breeze Sightings by Ed and Frances Walters has, if anything, fanned the flames. "If you took that case, Ed's sightings and those of his family away, and left everything else, you would still have a monumental amount of evidence related to the UFO mystery," Dr. Bruce Maccabee said. "Between Nov. 11, 1987 and May 1, 1988, which is the time taken up by Ed's book, the time that involved Ed Walters and Frances, I estimate that there were about 60 events which involved well over 130 witnesses in the Gulf Breeze area." Maccabee is a physicist employed by the U.S. Navy and a well-respected UFO investigator. According to Maccabee, about 65 sightings have occured in the Pensacola area since May, 1988. "I'm basing my statistics on cases that have been reported to MUFON," he said. MUFON is the Mutual UFO Network, a large organization of UFO researchers, investigators and enthusiasts. MUFON investigators Rex and Carol Salisbury have documented many UFO sightings and contacts in the Pensacola area going back many years. They made the following comments to the 1990 National UFO Conference in Miami Beach, Florida. In the interest of clarity, since they alternated speaking, I will quote the Salisburys as a team, rather than individually. "There have been sightings all around the town (of Pensacola)," they said. "Another area of intense activity is up around the university area." They said that the most of the witnesses they interviewed have had multiple sightings. "We have also discovered that many of these witnesses have also had missing time or other related UFO paranormal events or other types of ESP events in their lives," the Salisburys said. "These witnesses come from all walks of life, and they have seen a wide variety of UFO types, shapes and sizes." On February 8, 1989, Jeff Thompson and his young son watched as a brightly lighted object of about three feet in diameter landed in their front yard. Thompson crept close to the object and illuminated it with a flashlight. "The object suddenly emitted a bright, brilliant flash of light and disappeared," the Salisburys said. "Upon questioning Jeff, we learned that Jeff knew nothing at all of a previously-taken photo of a very small craft." "In March of 1989 we interviewed a family who has had multiple sightings and experiences over a two-year period in Pensacola, and as far back as 10 years ago when the honeymooning couple saw a UFO hovering over a mountain in Pennsylvania," the Salisburys said. "Another family residing in the same area has had a number of sightings dating back two or three years." The two families did not know each other. The Salisburys said that they have worked on several cases in an area near a Navy installation. The cases involve witnesses who have had multiple sightings and past experiences with UFO and related phenomena, some going back into the 1920s. One witness is a 71-year-old woman who recently saw her back yard flooded with light. She underwent hypnosis and learned that she had also seen a bowtie-shaped object and a second light. "Her first experience was in 1925," the Salisburys said. In another experience about seven years ago, according to the Salisburys, a young woman babysitting was sleeping on a couch when a noise awakened her and the house shook. She saw a translucent hemispherical object in the living room with her. The woman slipped into a bedroom to check the baby. While she was out of the living room, there was another noise, the house again shook and the object disappeared. She told the Salisburys that she looked out a window and saw three orange balls streaking away across the yard and into the sky. In March of 1989 two women were driving home (to the mainland) from Gulf Breeze when they noticed a white light that appeared to be pacing their car. When they rounded a curve, they saw an object hovering over the road in front of the car. The women stopped, got out of the car, and felt compelled to walk toward the object. They bumped into the open car doors and stopped. When a car approached, the object lifted straight up and vanished. A Pensacola-area woman who said a UFO abducted her in Germany 16 years ago saw a UFO west of Pensacola in August of 1989. She told the Salisburys that the UFO was identical to what she saw in Germany. In September, the same woman and her son saw two objects hover over their house. Twenty similar sightings have occured in their area since then, and the latest was in April 1990. On Nov. 30, 1989, a woman driving east from Gulf Breeze saw an arrowhead-shaped object hover over a utility substation. In February of 1990 MUFON received 26 sighting reports, and in March the organization received nine sighting reports. A large number of UFOs returned to Gulf Breeze in mid-April 1990. "We had sightings of lights almost every night for about a week," the Salisburys said. At least two witnesses made videotapes of those objects. "Pensacola MUFON has submitted over 64 cases," the Salisburys said. On the night of Nov. 11, 1987, Ed Walters, a Gulf Breeze builder, saw and photographed his first UFO. What set Walters apart from the other witnesses was that he had a camera readily accessible, is what would be politely described as stubborn, and had what could be called good luck as a UFO photographer. Walters was not alone in his UFO sightings that day. In the decade up until Nov. 11, 1987, witnesses reported about 10 sightings a year. "All of a sudden, on that one day, we find out that there were eight or nine sightings," Maccabee said. Other witnesses saw objects similar to the one Walters saw beginning at about 2:30 that morning. I will not recount Ed and Frances Walters' story here, since they do so in great detail in their book. Nor will I recount Dr. Bruce Maccabee's analysis of Ed and Frances Walters' photographs, since he does so in the paper he presented to MUFON. Since that Veterans' Day in 1987, Ed Walters has taken 41 pictures of possibly four different objects with five cameras. He has come under fire that his photographs were a hoax, possibly because they appeared too sharp and clear. Many other people took pictures before, during and after the period of his sightings, and several witnesses made videotapes. Walters made a videotape during one of his close encounters. Critics bandied about hoax and conspiracy theories. "You can't say there wasn't a conspiracy, but you can't establish a connection," Maccabee said. Also it appears that a large number of people would have to be in on a conspiracy. Maccabee examined several possible methods of hoaxing the photographs in his paper and found each to be either readily detectable or impossible to carry out. He also determined that Ed Walters would not have had the knowledge or equipment to carry out a hoax. "You're going to do something to destroy your roots?" Walters said. "Some would do something like that, but not a normal sane father." I described to Maccabee a method that could be used to hoax photographs that would pass most, if not all, of the tests he used to examine Walters' photographs. He was not familiar with the material and methods I described. He then pointed out that the events of the March 17, 1988 sighting and photographs would have precluded any manipulation of photographs by Walters. Maccabee said that on that date, a witness (Peter Newman) opened the sealed Polaroid film boxes, loaded Walters' cameras and wrote down the serial numbers of the film packs. Newman was also keeping track of the film counter of each camera. Walters took several unplanned souvenir pictures of people who had joined the small group. Because of the cold weather the spectators left, but several pretended to leave and returned in the darkness. They could not see Walters because of bushes and a restroom facility building. They could, however, see the treetops above Walters' position. Maccabee said that the witnesses saw two flashes in rapid succession illuminate the treetops. A few moments later they saw Walters run out of the bushes to his truck and turn on the headlights. The witnesses gathered around and watched the pictures develop, and those pictures showed a UFO. "Those people watched the film develop, which means the photos had to have been taken shortly before," Maccabee said. "There was no time in the middle to diddle with stuff." Maccabee said that he had experimented with trying to slow or stop the film development, even by freezing the film. He said that he managed only a slight slowdown in development, certainly not enough to have been part of a hoax. Critics have suggested that someone may have been showing Walters something to photograph, such as a balloon. However, weather conditions that night would rule out a balloon. Ed Walters said that the weather was cold and nasty that night. "The wind was coming right off the water," Frances Walters said. Hoax theories and debunking efforts still abound. "I don't know how they (debunkers) sleep at night," Ed Walters said. "What is so intimidating about these photos that would cause such a reaction among the debunkers?" Lately articles have appeared in some newspapers in which the primary source of information has been Willy Smith. MUFON has distanced itself from Smith, who was originally an investigator involved in Walters' case. Smith was implicated in a debunking effort in which an image of a Gulf Breeze-type UFO appeared in a photograph of the Chrysler Building in New York City. Smith claimed that Ed Walters took the picture. UFO investigator Antonio Huneeus and commercial photographer Manuel Fernandez came forward and stated that Huneeus had Fernandez make the photograph for study and experimental purposes. They said that it was not an Ed Walters photograph. Smith has also claimed that the so-called ghost pictures show that Walters was familiar with making multiple exposures before he made the UFO photographs. Walters said that Smith has taken the entire ghost picture idea out of context. He said that it is a game he plays with various teenage visitors to his house, and that the game is that the ghost is "in" you, not beside you. He said that he first takes normal pictures of several people. For the picture of the person the ghost is "in" he focuses the camera for long-distance and takes the picture with the subject about four feet away. The flash on his Polaroid camera makes the subject's eyes turn completely white, and the subject is a little blurry. That is what he calls a ghost picture. It involves no multiple exposures. The picture Willy Smith has shown as a ghost picture is of a teenage girl standing in front of a sliding glass door. It shows blobs of light near the girl. Maccabee said that he has confirmed that fingerprints and smudges on glass can cause similar reflections without the glass itself reflecting light. Frances Walters said that she had never cleaned that glass door. The mysterious blue beam that appears in Walters' photographs and other witnesses' reports has also brought forth much speculation. "It can lift you up, it can hold you down," Maccabee said. Walters said, "The blue beam stops you from moving; the white flash, I believe, if it strikes you on the head, incapacitates you." "I don't know that, but I believe it's true," he said. Walters explained how he captured the picture of the blue beam and Frances running in the doorway. He said that he was going outside while holding the camera up, and that the blue beam suddenly flashed just where he was about to step. At that time, Frances ran inside and he pushed the shutter release without even looking through the viewfinder. A new apparent debunking attempt is underway. An advertisement appeared in the Pensacola newspaper. The ad states, "Hoax UFO balloons are illegal." The advertisement text then says that anyone who sees or knows of UFO balloons should call a certain telephone number. "That's a Phil Klass phone number," Walters said. Walters also pointed out that the 1990 MUFON symposium will be in early July in Pensacola. He said that it would not be surprising if someone found a UFO balloon just in time for the symposium. Walters also mentioned a flyer that someone stuffed in Gulf Breeze mailboxes referring to him. It said, in part, "Many of our sources report how often this UFO nut can be seen drunk at local taverns." He said that the debunker obviously did not know that Santa Rosa County is dry, therefore there are no local taverns. "There is certainly a difference between an honest skeptic and a debunker," Walters said. "A debunker is compelled to convince all others that there is no such thing as a UFO; therefore, Gulf Breeze should be swept away." "I think probably most of you understand now, if you don't you should, that Gulf Breeze is not just Ed and Frances Walters," Walters said. "It would be almost as strange as a UFO to imagine that you can reject Ed's case as being a hoax and accept all the rest of them as being real," Maccabee said. Walters declined to identify Believer Bill and Jane, two people who anonymously gave pictures of UFOs similar to those Walters saw to the Gulf Breeze Sentinel. He said that he knows their identity. "I might have said it (Believer Bill's name) publicly a few times, and I might have hurt him," Walters said. "It's not up to me to denigrate or expose someone who doesn't want to be exposed." "It's job-related suicide for some professions," he said. He acknowledged that he may have erred in trying to remain anonymous, but said he was trying to protect his family. "I probably made the mistake that if you don't come forward, the news media will turn into a school of sharks," Walters said. "But if you don't come forward it almost makes it worse, because then they are going to track you down." "They'll try their best to leap upon you from the bushes," he said. "For two years I tried my best to shun publicity," Walters said. "If they (debunkers) hadn't attacked so viciously, the book wouldn't have been written." On Jan. 8, 1990, witnesses saw another UFO, and this time the military apparently took an interest. Ed Walters said that he and Frances were out walking near the Methodist Church in Gulf Breeze when they saw a large red light in the sky. "We'd been criticized early on for not always dancing to a phone and calling somebody, so in this case, we said well, what the heck, we'll run back to the house, take a chance that it's still going to be there, and we'll call people," Walters said. "I ran to the phone and started to call investigators." Walters reached two answering machines and a paging machine. He then called Duane Cook and a friend who he had promised he would call, and they said they were on the way. "This was all on faith that the object was still in the sky," he said. "I didn't know, I was still inside." "It could have already gone and then I would look very foolish because everybody would have come a'running and I'd be embarrassed," Walters said. Walters said, "I started to put together this new camera I'd purchased." He said that he started running back toward the church while still trying to attach the lens to the camera. Duane Cook and his son arrived and both saw the object. Two other people approached and now the object was visible to six people gathered near the church. "I could see through the zoom lens this black disc," Walters said. He said that the disc was visible against a moonlit cloud cover. Walters and city councilwoman Brenda Pollak took some photographs. Walters' camera had a zoom lens with a maximum focal length of about 200 mm., and Pollak had a 300 mm. lens on her camera. However, both had their cameras set on automatic exposure and the cameras automatically set long exposures. Walters' photograph shows a red blurry blob. "The critics and the debunkers would have me being a photo expert, some kind of genius," he said. Just after Walters made his exposure, the red light went out or, as others reported, the disc turned over. Pollak then took her photograph. Her photograph shows an image that looks like multi-colored pearls on a string. Maccabee said that the light changed colors 110 times during Pollak's three-second exposure. Since the camera was handheld with the 300 mm. lens, the image was a snakelike line with a blob of different colored light for each time the light changed colors. "I think this is a phenomenal picture," Walters said. "It doesn't solve anything, it just adds to the questions." "Some of the witnesses remember seeing a white light while the picture was being taken," Walters said. "We don't know we've captured this odd effect until the film comes out." The object then vanished, apparently into the low-lying cloud cover. Walters said that moments later, about six helicopters approached from the direction of Pensacola Naval Air Station. "There's no question where those helicopters came from," he said. He said that the helicopters approached the area of the church, illuminated floodlights and searched the area around the church. The object had been directly over the church when it vanished. A Navy chief, who was not an official spokesman, first told an investigator that the Naval Air Station dispatched the helicopters on a Search and Rescue mission. According to Walters, the investigator pressed further and the chief told the investigator, "You know what's been going on over there, you guess." Another red light appeared near the bridge from Gulf Breeze to Pensacola on the night of April 18, 1990, and many witnesses took photographs while several made videotapes. Maccabee said that he has most of the negatives and videotapes. Ed and Frances Walters' experiences have given them what could be called an insiders' perspective on the UFO phenomenon. "The toughest part is not understanding," Ed Walters said. "I don't like the idea that there may be something out there that may be a threat." Frances Walters said, "For every answer that you come up with, you seem to come up with a lot more questions." "Sometimes I think we haven't learned a darn thing," she said. A participant at the conference asked Ed Walters if he is ready for another visit from the visitors. "If they come symbolically to my front door, and they knock on the door, and they say, 'Hi, we're travelers from afar. Can we come in?' I'll open the door," Walters said. "If they try to come in the back door, in the darkness, and invade my household, I will resist and I will fight back." ### Copyright 1990 John B. Hicks --- FD 1.99c * Origin: -==- ParaNet Zeta Reticuli 602-951-3431 HST (1:114/37) -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Bruce Maccabee refutes Salisberry's findings Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202512.12710@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:25:12 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 253 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3139 alt.conspiracy:8634 sci.skeptic:17714 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- 11/8/90 REANALYSIS OF PHOTO #19 SUPPORTS WALTERS' STORY by Bruce Maccabee In his initial testimony regarding the "Road Shot (Photo #19), Ed Walters reported that he had been driving along highway 191-B at about 6:00 PM on Jan. 12, 1988 when a brilliant white light suddenly entered the cab of his truck. This caused him to lose some sensation of feeling in his hands and forearms. He said that he momentarily lost control of the truck and swerved to the left hand side of the road and then onto the left side shoulder. As this was happening he observed a UFO moving above and ahead of him and, as he managed to stop the truck on the left shoulder, the UFO was hovering several hundred feet ahead over the road. Ed said he had his Polaroid camera with him in the truck. He grabbed the camera and took the picture (Photo #19). But then he realized the object was moving and he had the impression that it was going to come back and hit him with the white beam again. He immediately crawled under the truck where he would be completely shielded. Unfortunately his legs were still protruding as the UFO did, indeed, shine the white beam down on him again. The complete story of the Road Shot (and Ed's other sightings) is told in his book, The Gulf Breeze Sightings (Morrow, NY, 1990). This is a must-read for anyone who wants to understand the historical context of Photo 19, the stereo photos of May 1 (which will be referred to later) and of all of the Gulf Breeze Sightings. Technical analysis is provided in A History of the Gulf Breeze Sightings (updated version available from the Fund for UFO Research). For the purposes of this discussion the description given above of how Photo #19 happened to be taken is sufficient. During the initial analysis of Photo 19, in the spring of 1988, it was assumed that the bright irregular image within the image of the road was the reflection of light from a non-uniformly radiating source within the glowing bottom of the UFO, and that the UFO was actually over the reflection. This seemingly reasonable assumption allowed the size of the UFO to be estimated in the following way. First the location of the reflection was determined by projecting a sighting line across the road in the direction of a "tree bump" in the skyline that appears above the image of the UFO. As a person walked along the sighting line form the camera position toward the tree bump he crossed the road and actually walked through the location of the reflection. Since the reflection image partially obscured the yellow line in the road, it was assumed that where the sighting line crossed the yellow line was the approximate location of the reflection, and hence the approximate location of the UFO. Measurements made on the site yielded a distance of about 185 feet from the camera to where the sighting line crossed the yellow line, When this distance was combined with the size of the UFO image on the film the size of the actual UFO could be calculated. It was found to be about 7.5 ft across the bottom bright area, about 9 feet high and about 12 feet across the mid-section. The calculation of the UFO size is the extent of the analysis that has been published to this date. However, in an unpublished calculation done during the summer of 1988, I used the RI to estimate the size of the illuminated area on the road. A simplified calculation showed that it had to be quite long in the dimensions along the line of sight. In fact, I estimated it to be about 80 feet long, if its center were 185 feet from the camera. Although this was a surprise to me, I simply attributed this to light coming out from the bottom of the UFO in a non-circular pattern at very flat angles (i.e., nearly horizontal). This seemed odd, but it certainly didn't violate physics. Recently Rex and Carol Salisberry, in reevaluating the Walters sightings, carried out an independent analysis of the RI in Photo #19. Being unaware of my 1988 calculation of the elliptical spot on the road they proceeded from another assumption. They assumed, for unstated reasons, that light could only come downward from the UFO in a direction roughly parallel to the (nearly) vertical axis of the UFO. Combining this assumption with my estimate of the bottom diameter (7.5 feet) they concluded that if the UFO were real, then it would illuminate a spot on the road that would be only slightly larger than the bottom of the UFO itself. That is, they claimed that the illuminated spot on the road would have been nearly circular and only about 7.5 to 8 feet in diameter. They then used simple photogrammetric and trigonometric calculations to predict what the size of the RI should be under their assumptions. They predicted that the RI should appear as a very thin line in Photo 19. Since it is, in fact, a very fat line (measured vertically), it disagrees with their prediction. Hence, they claimed that the RI could not have been caused by an actual reflection in the road since to do so would be a virtual physical impossibility (Salisberry, Interim Report on the Reopening of the Walters UFO Case, 23 Sept. 1990). The discovery of this "physical impossibility" led them to further conclude that the RI must have been faked (by double exposure) with the logical consequence that the whole photo, the story, etc. were all faked. It is of great importance to note that their result follows directly (after some simple math) from their assumption that light from the UFO could only travel downwards (roughly) parallel to the axis. If they had allowed for the possibility that light could travel outward from the bottom of the UFO at very flat angles then they would have seen that the spot on the road could be much larger than the bottom of the UFO. This is the result I obtained in the summer of 1988. My reanalysis of Photo #19 is based on the assumption that the RI really was caused by light reflected from the road. Starting from this assumption I have estimated the nearest and farthest points of the reflection. The distances from the camera to these points were estimated by combining on-site measurements with measurements on the photographs. By measurement it was found that the sighting line from the camera toward the tree bump crosses the near edge of the road at a distance of about 90 feet from the camera and the far edge of the road about 490 feet from the camera. The illuminated spot on the road lies between these two distances. Using photogrammetric techniques involving angles that are determined by measurements on the photographs, I estimated that the closest point of the illuminated area to the camera (the lowest point of the RI) was about 180 feet away, and the farthest point was about 305 feet away. (These distances could easily be off by 10 feet either way because of the low precision in measuring the actual boundary positions of the images.) Similarly, the width of the illuminated area was about 8 feet. Thus the spot on the road was approximately a thin ellipse with the long axis running along the sighting line to the UFO. (These calculations did not take into account the slight downward slope to the road from the centerline toward the edge. To take this into account would require a much more complicated analysis and a very accurate survey of the road. If the downward slope were to be taken into account it would likely decrease by a small amount the calculated length of the illuminated area.) Although the illuminated area is highly elongated, there is no physical reason why such an area could not be produced by a UFO (or by a conventional light source). Thus this analysis shows that the RI is not a "virtual physical impossibility" and it cannot be used as proof that Photo 19 is hoaxed. However, the analysis does raise the question of how the highly elongated illuminated area might have been produced. One way would be for the UFO to be over the far end of the reflection, for example, and emanating a very elliptical (in cross-section_ beam in the direction of Ed's truck, but pointed downward so that it hit the road. Alternatively, the UFO might be over the center of the illuminated area, directing light downwards and both toward and away from the truck. Yet a third possibility is that the UFO is farther away from the truck than the illuminated area and is directing a beam downwards and toward the truck. It is this last possibility which I find most interesting. It is important to realize that a previous assumption can be arbitrarily rejected. Previously I and others had assumed that the UFO was actually over the illuminated spot on the road. With this assumption it was possible to calculate the size of the UFO based on the image size and on the measured distance to the reflection (assumed to be rather compact and centered about 185 feet away). Thus the assumption was necessary for the previous analysis. However, it was not justifiable since the distance to an object cannot (generally) be estimated from a single photograph. The distance to an object can be calculated from a stereo pair of photographs, however, and Ed obtained just such a pair on May 1, 1988. The details of this sighting are in Ed's book. The information which is important here is that, using a stereo camera with a two foot baseline, Ed photographed two UFOs, the larger of which looks like the UFO in the Road Shot (see Ed's book for further details). These stereo photos also have images of lights which were at a known large distance. The images of the distant lights allowed the cameras to be calibrated for parallax. After the calibration had been done it was found that the UFO was about 475 feet away (over water!) and nearly 15 feet in diameter across the bottom. Thus its width was nearly twice the value which I had originally estimated for the Road Shot UFO (about 7.5 feet). Assume, now, that the size of the Road Shot UFO was the same as the size of the large May 1 UFO. Since the image size corresponds to a bottom diameter of 7.5 feet at 185 foot distance, then it also corresponds to a diameter of 15 feet at about 370 feet. If the UFO were actually 370 feet from the camera (but still over the road) the sighting line crossed the far side of the road at 490 feet), then the UFO would have been 65 feet from the farthest point of the reflection (at 305 feet from the camera). Hence the only way that light could get from the UFO to the illuminated spot on the road would be if the UFO projected a beam of light 65 feet toward the truck but downward at a slight angle so that the beam hit the road. The color of the RI suggests that this beam of light was white or pale yellow. A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene, with the illuminated spot between the camera and the UFO, is presented in Figure 1. This reconstruction can explain a puzzling fact about the RI: its high level of brightness. Under the previous assumption that the UFO was directly over the reflection I carried out tests with a powerful, 100,000 candlepower spotlight shining directly down onto the road. This reflection of the beam on the road made film images that were much, much less bright than the RI. Hence I had to assume that there was an extremely intense (much, much more than 100,000 candlepower) source of light within the UFO. This new reconstruction can explain the brightness of the RI quite easily without resort to extremely intense light sources within the UFO. It is well known that virtually any surface, even a rough black surface like a road, can give a strong reflection in the forward direction when illuminated by light at a grazing angle. This is the phenomenon of forward gloss (a rough, diffuse reflector becomes nearly a specular reflector at grazing incidence). This particular case, with the beam from the UFO hitting the road at a flat angle (several degrees) and the camera viewing the illuminated area at a flat angle (about a degree), is virtually "optimized" for the forward gloss effect. Experiments with a spotlight have confirmed this effect at the site of the Road Shot. Hence it is reasonable to conclude that the RI is a result of a moderately intense beam of light, like that from a powerful flashlight, projected downward at a slight angle from the UFO, incident at nearly a grazing angle on the road and reflected in the direction of the truck. Although the photograph itself provides no information which would allow us to choose which is the actual situation (e.g., UFO over the center of the reflection, UFO at the far end of the reflection, UFO beyond the reflection, etc.), the context of the situation does provide enough supplementary information to suggest a choice. ED described being hit by a white light before he ran off the road. He said that after he took the Road Shot he climbed under the truck because he thought the UFO was going to zap him again with the white light. (He says that the UFO did just that while he was crawling under the truck.) What might have caused him to think that the UFO was going to direct the white light at him again? Could it be that the white light was contained within a beam from the UFO and that Ed realized that the beam was hitting the road just ahead of him after he took Photo 19? Perhaps the white spot on the road, made by the beam, started moving slowly toward the truck just after Ed took the picture. Under these circumstances, he might well have concluded that the object was going to try to hit him again with the beam. Although there is no direct photographic evidence that the RI was made by a white beam on the road, the preceding discussion shows that the existence of such a beam would be consistent with Ed's story and with the brightness of the RI. The existence of a beam also allows the UFO to be further from the truck than the reflection and this, in turn, means that the UFO in the Road Shot could have been then same size as was the "large size Type 1 UFO" in the May 1 stereo photos. CONCLUSION The preceding analysis shows that the sample of the RI is not a "physical impossibility" and hence does not prove the Road Shot is a hoax as claimed by Rex and Carol Salisberry. A reconstruction of the Road Shot scene based on this reanalysis supports Ed's story by demonstrating that the RI may actually have been caused by the white light, which Ed described, in the form of a beam projected from the UFO toward the truck. Note: Photo 14 also has an RI underneath the image of the UFO. The RI is quite non-circular and can be explained in a manner similar to the explanation of the RI in Photo 19. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Ed Walters/Gulfbreeze refutes Willy Smith Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202614.12793@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:26:14 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 77 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3140 alt.conspiracy:8635 sci.skeptic:17715 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following was provided by Mr. Edward Walters, a central figure in the Gulf Breeze UFO flap. ------------------------------------------------------------------- July 13, 1989 This testimony from Antonio Huneeus and Manuel Fernandez demonstrates that Willy Smith's efforts to debunk the Gulf Breeze sightings have been motivated, emotional and fraudulent. Antonio Huneeus said, "In Feb. 1989, I mailed a letter to Willy Smith with a fake Gulf Breeze type UFO photo which was done for research, showing a UFO hovering over the N.Y. Chrysler Building. I told Smith that I knew the photographer and even forwarded the photographer's phone number. I knew the photo was a fake and only thought it was an interesting copy that Willy Smith would like to see. Later, (Feb. 27, 1989) Willy Smith mailed out a statement about the photo and said, 'Here is a copy of one of the photos allegedly taken by Ed Walters.' I, Antonio Huneeus want to go on the record and report that Willy Smith's statement is not true and he knows it." Manuel Fernandez is the professional photographer who made the fake photos. Manuel said, "It is not true that Ed Walters took the (Chrysler Bldg.) UFO photo. Willy Smith even called me and asked if I could fake some more. He sent me a color daytime print of Ed Walter's yard and asked me to fake a Gulf Breeze type UFO on them. I was suspicious but made the photos and sent them (slides) to Willy Smith. With his fake photo evidence in hand, Willy Smith wrote a letter to Robert Reid on April 6, 1989. Smith said, "I wonder if the 3 photos, taken in the same exact location as the Nov. 11, 1987 photos which I have received anonymously from Gulf Breeze, were sent by you." W. Smith also wrote a letter to Dr. Maccabee in which he repeated that he received these photos "anonymously." Manuel, the photographer said, "I did not send the 3 photos anonymously, this is not true. I made them at Willy Smith's request, using the print that he sent of Ed's yard. I don't want anything to do with Willy Smith, he is not telling the truth and I won't cover up for him. This is not what a true scientist would do." Willy Smith as been a constant fountain of fake stories that he supports with fake evidence. Willy Smith has even changed his educational background from an Engineering PhD by claiming to have a Masters in Astronomy and Physics and a PhD in Physics. Two letters from the U. of Michigan verify that he does not have a Masters in Astronomy and Physics nor a PhD in Physics. Since Willy Smith has exposed himself as a hoaxer, I will treat him as such and ignore him. There are serious UFO questions to be studied from which Willy Smith has disqualified himself. Sincerely, Antonio Huneeus Manuel Fernandez Edward Walters -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Debunkers v/s Believers re: Gulf Breeze. Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202746.12864@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:27:46 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 156 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3141 alt.conspiracy:8636 sci.skeptic:17716 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- TIMES, St. Petersburg, FL - July 8, 1990 DEBUNKERS vs BELIVERS Tales of another world are not alien to the national UFO convention. by Chris Lavin Times Staff Writer PENSACOLA - Sitting in the lobby of the Hilton Hotel, Gilbert Landis turned to the person next to him and , without a giggle, said this: "I'm here because 10,500 years ago my wife and I made a mistake." A few seats over, Clark McClelland from Orlando was talking about secret autopsies performed on alien creatures and Nazi scientists who escaped to secret Antarctic bases where they have been building flying saucers. Just down the hall, a preacher lectured about UFOs and the Bible. The parting of the Red Sea, he said may have been caused by the propulsion system of an alien spacecraft. So it went during the weekend at the national convention of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) - an annual gathering of scientists and others who belive the aliens have landed. If this was any other year in any other city, the convention would probably drift off like a UFO, an oddity never to be heard of again. But this was Pensacola, and it seems most of the population of nearby Gulf Breeze had reported a UFO sighting in recent years. So the conventation took on special meaning - to those who belive in the extra terrestrial and those who spend their time challenging UFO believers. Specifically, most of the Believers and Debunkers came loaded for a showdown over photographs taken by Gulf Breeze builder Ed Walters. The photos purported to show a UFO that Walters says hovered over his home, paralyzed him with a blue beam and left him and his wife, Francis, scared and bewildered. Since the publication of his book - titled "The Gulf Breeze Sightings: The Most Astounding Multiple Sightings of UFOs in U.S. History - Walters has been accused by Debunkers of using a model and trick photography to perpetrate a fraud. The battling has been, well, out of this world. "It's the wildest, most preposterious story I've ever heard," says Philip J. Klass, a longtime UFO debunker. "Just think of it. Multiple visits to the same house, little creatures, voices in his head, talking about bananas." Yes, Walters says, it does seem odd. But he insists the evidence and sightings by hundreds of others, including a Gulf Breeze town council member, corroborate his story. Walter's story began November 11, 1987, when he saw the UFO and snapped photographs. This encounter was close and continual - recurring through numerous sightings during the next three years. Walters says the UFO called him "Zehass," and he recounted conversations apparently coming from the UFO. In one encounter, Walters told of hearing alien voices speaking in Spanish complaining about being fed too many bananas. "I know this sounds bizarre," Walters wrote, "and I was tempted not to tell about it, but bananas are what they were talking about." Walters says he was hungry for an explaination of what he had seen. He notified MUFON investigators and passed his photos on to the Gulf Breeze Sentinel, a small weekly paper that reports UFO sightings. But as word of Walters' photos spread, more and more residents of this Gulf Coast town reported seeing the UFO. Walters soon learned a quick lesson about UFO sightings: The person who says he or she saw the UFO will be closely examined. Walters was plunged into the little-known but continuous war between the Believers and the Debunkers - both of whom questioned Walters for their own purposes. When the analysis was done, the outcome was no suprise. MUFON investigators backed Walters and his photos, skeptics such as Klass were not convinced. "You know, Walters is a convicted felon," Klass says. "Yes, car theft and forgery. He's slick, real slick." But Walters says his problems with the law dated back to his teen years. As an adult, he says, he has been a successful builder and a pillar of the community. With Gulf Breeze being the hottest UFO spot in the world, MUFON decided to bring its annual conference to Pensacola. When the 600 or so MUFON members arrived Friday, they found a city split over the reality of UFOs, but unified on the economic impact of this convention. A Gulf Breeze jewlery company had created "Gulf Breeze Sighting" watches and medallions. There were T-shirts featuring Walters' blue beam, and visitors could pay to be photographed with a life-sized statue of the Gulf Breeze alien. But even as the conference began, it was clear west Florida wasn't going to claim a special place in UFO history without a big fight. In recent weeks 22-year-old Tommy Smith of Pensacola has told reporters he helped Walters create double-exposure UFO photographs. And the Pensacola News Journal reported that a UFO model similar to Walters' photos was found hidden in a house formerly owned by Walters. But in an impassioned speech, Walters said evidence proves Smith's claims are false. The model, Walters says, was found to be constructed by materials discarded from his construction business in 1989, two years after he made his initial photographs. Debunkers, Walters alleges, constructed and planted the model to discredit him. The new allegations have stirred MUFON to reopen its analysis of the Gulf Breeze sightings, but if the atmosphere at this convention is any indicator, don't expect investigators to undermine Walters' claim. This convention drew a wide variety of UFO types. But virtually all shared a strong belief in UFOs and an equally strong belief that the U.S. government is hiding vast storehouses of information on UFOs and alien life. There were scientists such as Brian T. O'Leary, a former NASA astronomer and Princeton University instructor, who says his own psychic experiences have convinced him that the United States needs a new science that can explain psychic phenomena and, perhaps, UFOs. "I began commuinicating telepathically, I experienced moving out of my body and floating over cities, I healed myself with my mind," O'Leary said. And then there were other Believers who lacked O'Leary's academic credentials, but had stories to tell. Landis, for example, the 10,500-year-old San Diego resident, said NASA and the U.S. government is secretly aware of a 60-member "Universal Association of Planets" whose spaceships are Earth's UFOs. "You know what the astronauts saw on the back side of the moon?" Landis said. "There was a refueling station and a structure that looked very much like a hotel. And the canals on Mars? Dry docks for space ships." Landis' treatise on the history of the universe was interrupted by McClelland, who wants everyone to know that Earth is simply a giant genetic experiment being orchestrated by alien life. But all at this convention seemed unified by a belief there is something out there and we all need to learn more about it. Many are like George Kruse, a free-lance photographer from California who was drawn to MUFON when he discovered during a hypnosis session that he had been abducted by aliens. "I was taken and I couldn't move," Kruse says. "They looked down my throat and inserted a needle (into me). I remember I didn't like it." -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Statement from Florida SD Don Ware Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202853.12934@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:28:53 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 52 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3142 alt.conspiracy:8637 sci.skeptic:17717 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following was sent to me from Donald M. Ware with permission to upload it here. Don is Florida state director of MUFON and has been overseeing the Gulf Breeze UFO investigation. He is a retired Air Force officer (Lt. Colonel) now residing in Ft. Walton Beach, FL. DBC 7-19-88 --------------------------------------------------------------------- POSITION STATEMENT ON THE 1987-88 UFO SIGHTINGS OF GULF BREEZE, FL As MUFON State Director living only 44 miles from Gulf Breeze, I have helped coordinate the activities of seven local investigators and three internationally known investigators of the many UFO reports in this area. There have been at least 68 reports of objects that, after various amounts of investigation, we have not been able to identify as either naturally produced or made by man. These include 135 witnesses of which 4 reported alien beings, 6 reported blue beams, and 9 reported periods of missing time suggesting abductions. Over 60 UFO photographs have been taken. I am convinced that these sightings are proof of alien visitation. The level of technology demonstrated indicates they can come and go at will and can reside in a variety of places: the bottom of our oceans, inside major high altitude ice fields, in earth orbit, on the moon, on Mars, etc.. One might ask why one couple in Gulf Breeze has been allowed 18 photographic sessions. The most obvious reason to me is the aliens want people to see the photographs. I hope this causes more people to give serious thought to the idea that we, as an intelligent species, are not alone in the universe. Donald M. Ware -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 10/30/90 Letter To Pensacola Newspaper Message-ID: <1991Nov16.202951.13004@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:29:51 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 83 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3143 alt.conspiracy:8638 sci.skeptic:17718 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following is a letter from Don Ware and Charles Flannigan concerning a recent article in the Pensacola News Journal dealing with the Ed Walters UFO photographs. The letter was sent to both the Pensacola News Journal and the Gulf Breeze Sentinel. --------------------------------------------------------------- October 30, 1990 Dear Editor, As the primary investigators of the famous Gulf Breeze UFO case now involving over 70 photographs, Charles Flannigan and I feel we must comment on the "road shot." This photo, #19, has received doubtful comment in newspapers and TV recently. One investigator said that the reflection on the road doesn't form a round spot, so the photo most be a double exposure. A careful look at the surface of Shoreline Drive, 191B where the UFO hovered, will help explain the reflection resulting from the large bright light source on the bottom of the UFO. Looking down on the surface, you can see that about 30% is mostly white with some tan rock. This rock has a hard smooth surface. It is embedded in comparatively soft dark asphalt, and the light colored rocks have become oriented with mostly flat surfaces up. Over time, some asphalt has worn away 1 to 2 millimeters below the hard rock surfaces. A series of photos taken with a 100,000 candlepower light shining at various angles on the road shows enhanced reflectivity at shallow angles. This seems to be the result of spectral reflection from the light colored rocks. Because the asphalt is worn down below the surface of the rock, only the rock is visible when looking farther down the road. This causes more photons to reach the camera than you would normally expect from light reflected at a small angle. Now the shape of the reflection from the UFO becomes easier to understand. For those who still have doubts about the authenticity of this photo, you might look carefully at two photos in a copy of THE GULF BREEZE SIGHTINGS. Turn to page 129 and look at the daylight photo of the road. Compare the brightness of the double-yellow line between the hood and windshield wiper with the brightness near the spot where the UFO hovered. Now look one page back at photo #19 and make the same comparison. (Good light is helpful here.) The double-yellow line appears brighter near the UFO. This tells us that light from the UFO is reflecting off the line; hence, NO DOUBLE EXPOSURE (emphasis theirs). We have had the good fortune of getting to know Ed and Frances Walters well since our extensive investigation of the many Gulf Breeze UFO encounters of 1987 and '88. They are two of the most considerate, hard-working, and lovable people we know. They have shown great courage and composure under public attack by several UFO debunkers. We wish them the best of luck in all of their endeavors, whether it is a $1-a- year job or the sale of a mind-broadening book. Charles D. Flannigan MUFON Field Investigator State Director Donald M. Ware MUFON Field Investigator Eastern Region Director -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: 11/10/88 Gulf Breeze Sentinel Articles Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203133.13074@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:31:33 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 215 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3144 alt.conspiracy:8639 sci.skeptic:17719 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following brief articles appeared in the November 10, 1988 issue of The Sentinel, Gulf Breeze, Florida. This issue discusses some of the highlights of the UFO sightings that have occurred in the area over the past year. The first article is by the primary photographer "Ed". Others are written by: Donald Ware, Florida state MUFON director; and Duane Cook, editor of The Sentinel. The articles are reproduced here with the permission of The Sentinel. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S ANNIVERSARY On Nov. 11, 1987, as I opened the front door and stared at the glowing object partly obscured by several pine trees, I stepped into a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs. A phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here at home by dozens of our fellow residents. This reality may be hard to accept for those who have not had a sighting, so I do not try to convince or persuade. I have only reported my personal sightings and incidents as they happened. The resulting photographs and video tape I took of the UFO have been validated by computer imaging (Dr. Maccabee, physicist with the U.S. Navy). And, of course, there are otheres who feel differently and offer little other than opinions. When I was asked to use a 4 lens Nimslo 3-D sealed camera, I did. When I was asked to use the SRS (Self Referencing Stereo) camera, I did. The technical analysis of these photographs produced page after page of data with the end result detailing an object 14 foot in diameter at the bottom ring and 475 feet distant. The accusation of hoax came fast from those unable to say "maybe", and I was asked to take a lie detector test. Again the ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test. As the controversy swirled, I began to hear preposterous tales being spread by the debunkers about devil parties and "ultimate pranks," etc. Those of you who know me will certainly laugh at such claims, but the object was to discredit me in the eyes of those who don't know me. There was a very serious attempt to destroy my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances. Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me. Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors. Some of you may remember the front page headline "Expert says Photos a Hoax." The next day the "expert" publicly retracted his claim and apologized. A counterintelligence agency in Maryland was given an audio tape of me being interviewed. The resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner to doubt his (Ed's) answers." Soon I began to understand that no matter how many tests I was subjected to and how many times the photographs were analyzed, I was still open game for the out of town media and clearly a target to be ridiculed by the out of town debunkers. Many distant newspapers and TV crews played "hide and seek" with reporting the accurate details, and several times I have been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name. The official MUFON investigation was even infiltrated early by a debunker who took a liquid sample suspected to have fallen from the UFO for analysis only to issue a false report. Later the sample was analyzed by an independant lab with startling results. The debunker was exposed and fired in discredit. Another debunker from Central Florida has recently been exposed and is now being ignored by serious researchers. From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive and negative, continued to build in the media. The most troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so many sightings?" I can not explain the "why" questions, the most disturbing one being, "Why Me?" In an effort to understand, I have undergone a battery of pshchological profile tests followed by six hours of regressive hypnosis. The details of the hypnosis indicate previous encounters as far back as 11 years of age. I was the first to shake my head in confusion but have come to the adjustment that life goes on-- even life we may not understand. Thanks to all those who have stood up and reported what they saw. Thank you, Gulf Breeze for being a good neighbor. ------------------------------------------------------------------ GULF BREEZE UFO FROM THE INVESTIGATIVE PERSPECTIVE BY DONALD M. WARE During the past year, many residents in and around Gulf Breeze, FL have been part of a unique experience in this country. Over a hundred people reported objects that we could not identify as planes, planets, flares, etc.. Some reported seeing alien beings, and six reported blue beams coming from the UFO. One respected Gulf Breeze family had 22 encounters with UFOs, including 18 separate photographic sessions. These sessions produced 41 photographs of at least five different types of flying objects. Five different cameras were used providing sufficient data to determine the size of some objects. For example, one object photographed on 1 May 1988 was 14.8 (misprint?) feet high and had a light on the bottom that was 14.8 feet in diameter. I have seen over 60 photos of UFOs from this area. Investigations by Newspapers, TV and the Mutual UFO Network were generally accomplished without ridicule. This encouraged 12 people to tell of their UFO experiences that involved "missing time" or extremely strange dreams. Some of these people are having trouble coping with their experiences. MUFON established a support group including abductees, investigators, and a clinical psychologist to help reduce fear of the unknown. I think the support efforts, including time-regression hypnosis, have helped several who seem to have been inside a UFO understand their strange experiences. I suspect that the increasing national media coverage of the UFO phenomenon, spurred by the Gulf Breeze photos and sightings will cause many more abductees to gain the courage to talk about their experiences. Perhaps some will seek help in understanding what happened to them. I hope investigators and psychologists across the country will work together to provide this help. Some people have been unable to fully accept the reality of alien visitors, including some "armchair investigators." Perhaps the Gulf Breeze photos will help people across the country accept the reality described in the MJ-12 documents and other government disclosures. -------------------------------------------------------------------- TO CELEBRATE OR NOT TO CELEBRATE BY DUANE COOK How do you celebrate the anniversary of an event you are not yet sure was good? Well, maybe celebrate is not the appropriate term. Perhaps reminisce is a better word to apply to our thoughts and activities on this 1st anniversary of the now famous UFO sightings by "Ed" and others in and around Gulf Breeze. Initially we had no idea that printing Ed's photos would cause such a worldwide interest in our fair community. First, there were the wire services that broke the news worldwide with a brief account of the first sightings. Then came the National Enquirer with their offer to pay for the right to print the photos if NASA Scientists found them genuine. MUFON (Mutual UFO Network) got involved in the investigation early and became the authority to which the explosion of local sightings were referred. Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist under contract with the Navy, did the most extensive research on the Gulf Breeze sightings and photographs and has pronounced them real for lack of any evidence to the contrary. And now we find ourselves contemplating why Gulf Breeze? Is it because they (the UFOs) knew Ed would share his photos with the whole town via the Sentinel and subsequently the local TV stations? Or is it because Ed lives here and they (the UFOs) just followed him here to continue their interaction with him as they have done at eight year intervals since he was a child? And what about the many other sightings we've had? Is it just coincidence that Charlie and Doris saw the same craft on the same night that Ed photographed it, thus assuring the Sentinel's unflinching support while maintaining its unquestioned credibility? Then there are the ministers, the teachers, the law enforcement officers, the district medical examiner and his wife, and even a city council member. Were these people just randomly in the right place at the right time, or is there an intelligent plan guiding the selection of who sees it and who doesn't? Whether we call it a celebration, a reminiscence, or a review, we all found it amazing that it's already been a whole year since it all started. And we wanted to share with you our thoughts and reflections on this most interesting year. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Reports by several others also appeared in this issue of The Sentinel but are not presented here. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Message reply on Ed's "ghost" photos Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203357.13160@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:33:57 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 83 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3145 alt.conspiracy:8640 sci.skeptic:17720 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Message #8792 - Gourmet Gab Date : 18-May-90 12:43 From : John Hicks To : Don Allen Subject : Gallifrey > Did Ed tell you how he had managed to capture those "ghosts" > on film (recent Sentinel article showed a young girl at Ed's > house and the appearence of a ghost either behind or beside > her)? Yes, he described what he was doing and showed me some pictures. The ghost pictures are pretty much a disinformation campaign by Willy Smith. BTW, when the first burned area was found in the field, Willy Smith insisted he smelled gasoline while no one else did. Specific testing for petroleum products found none. Also, Willy Smith hired a photographer in New York to fake a picture of an Ed-style ufo in front of the Chrysler Building, ostensibly to show how it could be done. Smith then passed off that picture as one of Ed's pictures until the photographer contacted MUFON and let the cat out of the bag. So, I think anything Willy Smith says is highly suspect. Anyway, back to the ghost pictures. According to Ed, the game is that "The ghost is *in* one of you, and only the camera can tell which." Ed takes a couple of normal pictures of the kids, no ghost. Then he picks one, focuses the camera for long distance (called infinity, but he didn't know that) and takes a picture of the kid about four feet away. The out-of-focus picture shows the far wall sharp while the kid's a little blurry. The flash causes the eyes to go totally white in the same way that many pictures of people result in red eyes, or of animals result in bright green eyes etc. The "ghost" of course has totally white eyes. In the picture Willy Smith is trying to call a ghost picture, it was supposed to be a regular picture of the kid, no ghost. However, it was shot in front of a sliding glass door which Frances said she had never cleaned in the five or so years they had lived in the house. Maccabee said that he has confirmed in tests that fingerprints and smears can really reflect blobs of light while the angle to the glass is such that clean glass doesn't reflect light back to the camera. I've also seen this many times myself. Anyway, Smith claims that the photo which shows the blobs of light is supposed to be a ghost picture, but when you see Ed's examples of "ghost" pictures and the pictures that show the kid that the "ghost" is gone, you can see that Smith is taking little bits of information completely out of context in a debunking effort. Absolutely no signs of double exposure or manipulations other than intentionally wrong focusing can be seen in any of the pictures. > Total Non-sequitor: Since you're a photographer...what camera > setup > would you recommend and film,speed,etc to capture a UFO in > flight? I extrapolated a ballpark exposure based on the known exposure settings of Ed's pictures taken with the Polaroid 108 film. It comes out to a ballpark exposure setting of 1/60 at f2.8 with ISO 3200 film. This is for the craft itself, providing it's apparent self-illumination would be about the same. My gut guess was 1/60 at f2 with ISO 1600 film, which amounts to the same. Of course, if what you see is a bright light, you'd use less exposure, while if you see a dark disc you'd use more exposure. If you see lights on a dark disc you'd need to decide whether to go for the structure of the disc and let the lights overexpose or to go for the lights and let the disc go to black. In any case, you need to use manual settings rather than autoexposure because the metering system will see all that black sky and give an exposure of several seconds. This is what happened recently when Ed and several others tried to photograph a dark disc that had a dull red light on the bottom. Everyone's camera gave an exposure of three to five seconds and all anyone got was blurry blobs. jbh -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Message about Hyser Report Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203520.13302@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:35:20 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 86 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3146 alt.conspiracy:8641 sci.skeptic:17721 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Message #5474 - INFO.PARANET Date : 10-Nov-91 2:12 From : John Hicks To : all Subject : Hyser report Here's the scoop on the Hyser report (so far). Rex Salisberry says he has a copy of William Hyser's report on some of Ed Walter's photos but can't release it to us yet because of a committment he made to Hyser to not release the report without his (Hyser) permission. Jerry Black sent a copy to Phil Klass, and Phil quoted a little of it in his newsletter. Rex said Hyser went through the roof. Anyway, the gist of the report is that Hyser found quite a few things in the photos that were *consistent with* multiple exposures, but nothing that constituted *proof* of multiple exposures. I think we've already discussed most of those items and picked the photos apart, but of course we don't have any clout so we don't really count. ;-) Also, in the October 1991 _Photomethods_, (a journal for commercial/ industrial photographers) Hyser went through an example of how to do a multiple exposure and have the object appear to be behind another darker object. The example was a ufo behind a church steeple at night (surprise!) Anyway, he presents the idea of the film's threshold sensitivity as being the key to having a foreground object appear black against a slightly light object. Look at Ed Walter's photo #1, in which we see a ufo behind a tree branch. Keep that in mind. Now I'll walk through the threshold sensitivity thing, in plain English. In the graphic arts and photolab industries, the process is called flashing, so you guys familiar with that stuff will now already know what I'm talking about. Photographic film (paper etc.) requires a minimum amount of light for an image to "stick." For example, let's say the threshold is five photon (units of light). If the film receives only four photons, they'll most likely dissipate before you develop the film. If the film receives more than five photons, they "stick" and you have a latent image (waiting to be developed). So, an area of film that receives only four photons will be black (clear) and an area that receives six photons will have density. Listen closely now..... A ufo model is first photographed against a black background, and is exposed just below the threshold, say, just under five photons. If you were to develop the film, you'd see no image. *But* you make a second exposure on the same sheet of film. The second exposure consists of a black tree and an illuminated skyline. You make this exposure slightly underexposed. Where the tree overlaps the ufo, the film doesn't receive any additional light, so you have a total exposure still of just under five photons; no image. The combination of the skyline *and* the ufo below-the-threshold image make up more than five photons, so not only do you have the skyline image, you've kicked the ufo image over the five-photon threshold too; you have an image of a ufo against a skyline, with a (black) tree that appears to be in front of the ufo. *But* such a multiple exposure isn't without artifacts. The very dark image of the ufo will tend to take on the colors of the background. Sort of a chameleon effect. Also, to heighten the contrast between the ufo image and the skyline, you can develop the film for a longer time (Polaroid 108 too). Now, take another good close look at the Ed Walters photos...... My opinion? (since you didn't ask) This process is certainly workable, and wouldn't be anywhere near as cumbersome as masking techniques in the darkroom, then printing onto Polaroid etc. But it'd be hard to control. But certainly workable. I think we have another valid hoax theory. Not proof, but a theory that can explain photo #1. William G. Hyser is a consultant in optical instrumentation, photogrammetry, forensic engineering, electrical contact physics and illumination engineering. Perhaps best of all, he's not a ufologist. jbh --- * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29) -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Jim Speiser message about Ed and the model Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203634.13520@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:36:34 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 113 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3147 alt.conspiracy:8642 sci.skeptic:17722 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Message #5717 - UFO Date: 11-11-91 13:09 From: Jim Speiser To: All Subject: Ed and the model Replies: -> #5721 One of the reasons I reject Ed Walters' claims regarding his photographs of the Gulf Breeze object is the sheer NUMBER of little controversies surrounding the photos and events there. One of those controversies, of course, is the model that was found in Ed's former residence. Ed has been very good at putting out fires, by misdirecting people's attention to little details that would seem to exonerate him. But now there is another controversy arising out of the model, and that is the apparent attempt by someone to "go back in time" and change the relevant evidence, or get rid of it altogether. The evidence hinges on the house plans made by Ed Walters which appear on the inside of the UFO model. Ed claims the plans were drawn up in September of 1989, two years after his first UFO photos were made public. But, according to Phil Klass' "Skeptics UFO Newsletter", July 1991 issue.... << It can now be revealed that in early January, 1987, Walters and Russ McElhinney decided to build a a house "on speculation" at 712 Jamestown Drive which would have a Living Area of 1740 sq. ft. and whose garage entrance would be PARALLEL to the long dimension of the house -- as in the UFO-model house plan. On Jan. 16, 1987, Walters and McElhinney filed a building permit request with the Gulf Breeze City Hall and 12 days later, on Jan. 28, they filed a building permit reqeust with Santa Rosa County ... However, the Slab Area shown does NOT match the 2393 sq. ft. visible on the UFO-model drawing. But if one calculates the Slab Area for the Thomas house plan, it does not total 2393 either. When I pointed this out to Maccabee, he replied that "the term `slab area' does not mean just the area where there is concrete slab. How Ed arrived at the [2393] number is a straightforward caluclation for him, even though it may seem strange to you (and me)." (The "Spec House" was never built. A short time later, Mr./Mrs. Gerald Folkers contracted with Ed to build a somewhat different design at 712 Jamestown Drive.) Soon after the small UFO-model was discovered, Ed Walters visited the owners of his former residence to inspect the model they had found. A short time later, Ed and his wife Frances visited City Hall to examine house plans. Later it was discovered that the lower right corner of the "spec" house drawing - where the Living Area and Slab Area figures normally are shown - had been torn off by some "person unknown." WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA FIGURES? Several potential suspects come to mind: The KGB, The Pope, Dolly Parton, Barbara Bush, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Saddam Hussein, Donald Trump, and VP Dan Quayle. If you can think of any other possible suspects, please submit name(s) to SUN. >> I plan to scan the 1/28/87 building permit application into the system and will distribute it. Again, not the smoking gun, but just another of those "little controversies" that mar this case. Jim Speiser Note: This message originally appeared on ParaNet a few months ago. I'm reposting it here because the controversy over the plans has come up here recently and I wanted to try and clarify a few things. JS --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: REMOTRON ASSOCIATES INC Scottsdale, AZ Freq FILES (1:114/37) Message #5721 - UFO Date: 11-12-91 10:14 From: John Hicks To: Jim Speiser Subject: Ed and the model Replies: #5717 <- > WHO WOULD HAVE ANY REASON TO VISIT THE GULF BREEZE CITY HALL AND TEAR > OFF THE CORNER OF THE "SPEC HOUSE" PLAN THAT SHOWED ITS LIVING/SLAB AREA > FIGURES? Hee hee! Also, I've been told that round about the same time, Gulf Breeze Mayor Ed Grey visited the planning & zoning dept. (or whatever they call it) for the very first time, all by himself. Unknown whether that was before or after the Walters' visit. jbh --- * Origin: Moderation? What's that? -*- Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:363/29) -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Salisberry CI$ conference transcript Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203742.13662@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:37:42 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 554 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3148 alt.conspiracy:8643 sci.skeptic:17723 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- [Transcript of an Online Conference with Carol and Rex Salisberry. Two MUFON UFO investigators in the Gulf Breezes, Florida case. Terry Ecker acts as a local host. Sunday, Septmeber 2, 1990] User User ID Nod Area Name ---- ------------- --- -------- ------------------- 1 76146,2631 HLV Rm 5 Vince 2 76703,266 DUK Rm 5 G-WIZ 3 76012,3361 BMD Rm 5 Ted 4 71450,3504 ANN Rm 5 Bert 5 71207,1165 PSF Rm 5 Rex & Carol 6 76004,340 QGD Rm 5 Jack 7 70431,3543 PRI Rm 5 Paula 8 72540,1652 DWC Rm 5 Tom 15 74270,3360 SIF Rm 5 DON (5-3,Ted) Tonights special guests are Carol and Rex Salisberry MUFON investigators on the Gulf Breezes UFO case. Carol and Rex wil discuss and answer questions about the numerous sighting in the area. Because the case is still on going and also because of all the senstionalist press the Ed Walters case is NOT one they wish to debate. Many thanks to Terry Ecker foracting as the local host in Florida. With that behind us, Carol? Rex? Do you have any opening remarks? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) We just want o thank you for having us as guests. ga (5-1,Vince) ? (Bert) ? (5-6,Jack) ? (5-3,Ted) I will open the floor to ? and !. Please type a "?" or a "!" if you have a question or comment and I will take your name down and flag you when it is your turn. GA Vince (5-1,Vince) Rex would like to know your background and how you became interested in ufo's? (5-5,Rex & Carol) Retired Air Force 31 years rasnk colonel, pilot for 20 plus, R&D last 15 years. POresently teach college parttime. Have always been interested in UFOs, just been more active past couple of years Carol and a friend saw three daylight disks in spring of 88, Pardon Terry's typing. ga (5-3,Ted) Bert is next GA (Bert) ok... Rex and Carol, one of the more significant signtings by multiple witnesses seems to have been the one on Sept. 12, 1989 involving about 35 witnesses including 12 MUFON investigators. The recent in the Sentinel (9/21/89) suggested that this was a "type II" object (i.e. like photos 20 and 22 in the "book"). I understand that Bruce Maccabee analyzed photographs of this event Have the results of this analysis been completed and was the object indeed a "type II'? Also have your own investigations involved this particular event or related events? Thanks. GA (5-5,Rex & Carol) First, we doubt that there were 35 witnesses. Anyway, fewer than half saw it, and not all of the MUFON investigators saw it. It was just aq red dot kin the sky. One photo was taken, not nalyzed to our knowledge. We don't consider that a significant sighting by any means. ga (5-3,Ted) Jack is next. GA (5-6,Jack) Rex and Carol , I am most interested in any physical evidence that may be associated with the GB sightings. Has any been found or is the bulk of the evidence primarily photos and sightings ? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Many persons have mysterious physical marks on their bodies, such as puncture wounds, new scars with no previous wound, etc. Not many photos, and few of them show much. We have a few small pieces of metal which were gathered from inside the car after the driver was struck by something on the left shoulder; metal not yet analyzed. ga (5-10,Steve) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Steve (5-10,Steve) Rex, As a retired military officer. What is your opinion as to the extent of official government cover up and/or involvment at GB and at other UFO sites, ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) We think it's obvious the government has always covered up to someextent. We have no evidence to indicate government involvement in the cases here. ga (Bert)? (5-3,Ted) While we are waiting for the next round of ?s and !s I have a ? Carol or Rex, just how many people have sighted the GB UFO and how many have shown body markings? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Gulf Breeze UFO is misleading. Many different types have been seen, all shapes, all sizes some with markings, some with windows. Triangular shapes transparent UFOs, arrow head shapes, cigar shaped and disks. The GB (Walters) UFO not seen by many. ga (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Could you describe one or two of what you feel are your most significant cases. Particularly involving on of the skin wounds if possible. ga (5-3,Ted) Good ? Bert GA C&R (5-5,Rex & Carol) Two witnesses, mother and daughter, are with us tonight. One has wounds on her arm in the shape of the object she saw, delta shaped. They wer standing in their driveway; the object covered their yard and the yard next door - about 150 feet. Had a bright white light on front, a red light on each corner. It was followed by a cigar shaped object with a white light on the left and a red light on the right; both were followed by a very small red light that appeared to be trying to catch up. There was no sound. We just held hands as they went over us at treetop level. We jumped in our car and tried to follow it, lost sight, but seen again six miles to the east in reverse order. ga (5-3,Ted) Any missing time? ga (Bert) ?follow (5-5,Rex & Carol) Not that either is aware of. They were disoriented and lethargic for a few days. Hypnosis has been attempted with no conclusive results so far. Body markings are as yet unexplained. ga (5-3,Ted) Bert has a follow up ? Then it's Matt's turn. GA Bert (5-5,Rex & Carol) Hi Don. (Bert) Have the two witnesses had any further sightings and/or is this a one-time thing? ga (5-15,DON) Hello all. (5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, many times beginning in 1958 and some since. On one occasion we followed one to their house and all four of us saw it. ga Same object shape etc.?ga (5-6,Jack) ? (5-1,Vince) ? (5-5,Rex & Carol) They have seen several sizes and shapes. The one we followed to their house was just a round white ball. ga (5-3,Ted) Matt GA (5-3,Ted) Matt are you still with us? ga (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Not on the list. (5-5,Rex & Carol) ! (5-3,Ted) Ok Matt, I had you down for a ? my mistake. GA R&C [NOTE: Ted was having problems with his CIM Software and CosmicThAng/Philly was showing up as Matt on his computer. Hence, a LOT of confusion!] (5-5,Rex & Carol) We have one long term case dating back 16 years to the abduction of the mother in Germany. Through hypnosis she has total recall of the event and has povided detailed descriptions of the craft and the entities. Th craft was a 40 foot disk with a crew of six. One had died nd a second ship was bringing a replacement crew member. Entities looked like greys in silver suits. They seemed capable of emotion such as anger, compassion, etc. The family has had more than 20 sightings here during the past year. ga (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ? (5-3,Ted) Ok GA MATT (Bert) Looks like only Ted can see Matt the phantom.ga (5-3,Ted) Ok Jack is next GA Jack (5-5,Rex & Carol) No Matt on the list here. (5-6,Jack) Ok... (Bert) Hmmmm, not here.ga (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) Wait a second. Ted says I'm Matt. I'm CosmisThAng and I'm next. ga (5-6,Jack) Regarding the pieces of metal when is the completed analysis expected? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Analysis will *begin* when we find someone who can do it. (cheap). ga (Bert) ? (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Vince (5-1,Vince) Is there any local concern by citizens in the area is there any local govt concern for citizens safety or is there not concern? (5-5,Rex & Carol) Well, we would say that spreading interest is more descriptive than concern, although some do have concerns. Local government seems to have no official position but are very cooperative with us on investigastions. We know of no one who has been physically harmed by the phenomena, except for the small wounds we have mentioned. ga (5-7,Paula) ? (5-3,Ted) Folks Css is next. For some reason (probably a CIM bug) he is showing up as Matt on my list. Oh, well, GA Cosmic (5-11,CosmicThAng/Philly) My questions also deal with bodily marks. Is there an repeated pattern as to mark type or location?? To re-ask Ted's ?, how many GB folks have marks? Also is there any history or occu4rance of migraine headache disorders among the potential abductees? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) No identifiable pattern of marks locally, butt call-ins from other areas have triangular marks mainly. Don't know how many Pensacola area folks have marks. (We say Pensacola area since most events happen outside of GB. There are many folks with migraine headaches, buzzing in the ears. There is possible correlation with contactees. ga (Bert) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Actually I think Paula is next. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Paula (5-7,Paula) If not, any theories? Thanks ga (5-9,Russ) ? (5-5,Rex & Carol) No, but for what it's worth, one name we were given was Zorcon. We have another contactee with us tonight whose experience goes back at least 16 years and has written a book on the subject. ga (5-3,Ted) I want to hear more about that after Bert"s ? ga Bert (Bert) Rex, can you describe the metal object (poss. alien artifact) that you mentioned earlier? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Very small, BB size, rough ut shiny, like little metl pebbles. ga (5-3,Ted) ANy follow Bert? (Bert) Yes, does it break appart easily? And have you looked at it under a microscope? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) No, we can't break it. It hasn't yet been examined under microscope. (5-3,Ted) Since I have obviously been have a problem with CIM software tonight I want to be sure that i have not missed anybody... (5-3,Ted) Is there anyone out there that has been skipped over? ga (5-9,Russ) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Russ (5-1,Vince) ? (5-9,Russ) I was wondering if you have noticed any change in the frequency of sightings in Florida since 1958? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Can't say since 58. Frequence has been relatively constant the last three years. Before that we weren't here or involved. There are reports of considerable activity on Eglin AFB in 1976-77-78-79. ga (5-3,Ted) Vince is next. Ga (5-9,Russ) ? (Bert) ? (5-1,Vince) Rex, when did you retire and did you have any military related sightings? (5-5,Rex & Carol) 1983. Sighting in early 60s hih over KC. Mo. We were at 33,000 and UFO up around 40,000. K.C. paper next day reported a landing in Kansas. ga (5-7,Paula) ? (5-1,Vince) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Russ (5-9,Russ) Have thre been any reports of the infamous "Men In Black"? (5-5,Rex & Carol) No. Carol had one Man in Black reporting and nother witness claims to have seen alien at the MUFON Symposium in July. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Your mentioning of a "buzzing in the ear" of a number of witnesses is this the same type of buzzing involved in the Walters' case? Also is the support group still meeting -- i.e. in the absence of Overlaid? And if so, how many people attending. Thanks. ga (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ? (5-5,Rex & Carol) No on the Walters hum, other have hih pitched ringing while others have moderate hum, sometimes with sightings. Support group dissolved before Overlade died. ga (5-3,Ted) Paula is next GA (5-7,Paula) Excuse my ignorance (I'm new to this topic), but what does MUFON stand for? Also tell us about the book you mentioned earlier. Thanks ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) MUFON = Mutual UFO Network. The book is *Star Bright, Star White* by Norman Hill of Pensacola. I don't know whether it's permitted to talk about the book, price of how to get it. Will let Ted say. ga (5-3,Ted) Plug away! ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) P.O. Box 16040, Warrington FL 32507. $10 plus $2 shipping & handling this is a self published hardcover book by a man who has had many sightings east of here, near Tallahassee, and numerous contacts with several different entity groups. Normn has spent many nights camping at the site where he has seen UFOS tkoff and land - the same site where. The site is on St. Joe Paper Co. land. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Vince (then Cosmic) (5-1,Vince) ok... (5-1,Vince) Are we any closer to solving the mystery and does there appear to be any govt interest in the GB area sightings.ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) We see no signs of government interest here, nor that we are close to solving the mystery. Sorry. ga (Bert) ? (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Got a follow up, Vince? ga (5-1,Vince) no (5-3,Ted) GA Cos (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) R&C: You said earlier that the hum sound correlated with sightings. Did you mean to indicate that all sounds correlated (thusly)?..or just the hum sound. Any correlation with the high pitched sound? I've heard that for years and years since childhood. ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) The hum, etc. and sightings are seldom simultaneous, apparently.Correlation is only possible, not established. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Regarding the metal pieces recovered did I understand correctly that there are several pieces that all appeared during the same event and that they are all BB sized hard objects? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, three of them. ga (Bert) ?follow (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (5-1,Vince) ? (Bert) Where were they found? i.e. on the floor of the car or "stuck" to something in the car? thanks. ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) On the floor. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Vince (5-1,Vince) Have you had any other military flyers relate ufo incidents to you and was yours reported?ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Other flyiers yes, but not for the record. Ours not reported. ga (Bert) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Bert (Bert) Anything new on the AWOL group? And what do you think of this strange scenario? ga (5-6,Bruce G) ? (5-1,Vince) ? (5-5,Rex & Carol) We talked to four of them three or four weeks ago. They said they know nothing of "Rapture" or finding the anti-Christ. They repeated they felt they had to leave Germany but not U.S. Army. Claimed they liked their work. They had been reading the Bible, mostly. Revelations. Possible they may have experienced paranormal things in Germany. These paranormal events continued after they left. They consider themselves as being a simple AWOL case. They had hoped to meet Bill Cooper since one of his papers bears similarity to their reading of the Bible. They intend to release details of their experience to the media soon. ga (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) ? (5-3,Ted) GA Vince (5-1,Vince) Pretty serious offense (AWOL) did the army just let them go and what were their motives?ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) AWOL is not too serious. Most go back. Reportedly Army has 600 AWOLs a month. Army granted general discharges to these six. Their motives were to leave Germany, which they have not yet explained. ga (5-3,Ted) GA Cosmic! (5-1,Vince) ? (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) Dealing strictly with pure, unsubstantiated instinct. Dis you feel that the GB6 were speaking with total candor. Did they seem afraid of saying the wrong thing? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) Yes, we thought they were speaking with candor, and they were not afraid. We had been aware of their interest in the writings of Bill Cooper for several months before their arrival in GB.... (5-5,Rex & Carol) We are also aware of their interest in psychic studies. ga (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) follow up? (5-3,Ted) Follow Cos? (5-10,CosmicThAng/Philly) So the GB & UFO connections are pure coincidence??? Bill Cooper and GB, BOTH?? ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) It appears to be coincidence at this time. They came to GB to visit a friend. They think their AWOL case has been blown out of proportion as well as their "involvement" with UFOs. ga (Bert) ? Ted got dumped. Rex with all the sightings by multiple witnesses I think there are 290 plus now, if I remember correctly,. has there been any thought of having an organized ffort to request (or perhaps DEMAND) an official investigation i.e. by government officials. I would think there would be enough people to sign something that would give it a little weight. But of course we know what the gov. position would probably be. ga (5-1,Vince) ? (5-5,Rex & Carol) Most witnesses are reluctant to have their names divulged, such as the signing a petition. Any demand would have to be made at presidential level since decision to withhold UFO information is also made at that level. We locally lack clout to demand anything. We consider ourselves fortunate that so many witnesses/contactees have the guts to share their experiences with us. We would hate to dry up that source. ga (5-8,Ted ) Sorry folks I got dumped. Who is next? ga (Bert) I think Vince is up. (5-1,Vince) I agree AWOL as such is not that serious but most are just guys that oversleep. It doesn't appear that they had any intention of returning and what or where is it stated that the release of UFO information is made at presedential level?ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) At the time of their arrest the six were debating their futures turn themselves in to the Army, hide out in the hills or what. They repeated several times that their intuition was to leave Germany and not the Army. If you believe the MJ-12 documents and the President Carter statements regarding UFOs, one could form the conclusion that such decisions are indeed made at presidential level. The one case with which I am familiar involving a foreign country, the disclosure decisions were made by the president. ga (5-1,Vince) follow (5-8,Ted ) GA Vince (5-6,Bruce G) ? (5-1,Vince) If you believe in the MJ-12 documents there has to be a large scale coverup and a large infrastructure in not only the military but other agencies to manage the wealth of information, sightings etc that continue to be reported. This appears to be too well hidden.ga (5-5,Rex & Carol) It is hard to know how large the infrastructure might be, however in personal contact with former Bluebook workers and others, they relate that considerable UFO related information was systematically withheld from the public. ga (5-8,Ted ) GA Bruce (5-6,Bruce G) This may sound silly, but is there a viable alternative to the gov't as far as the public is concerned, to report incidental contacts or sightings... (5-6,Bruce G) like a 1-900-SAW-AUFO? ga (5-8,Ted ) $25 for the first 30 seconds! (5-5,Rex & Carol) There is MUFON, n international reporting and investigative organization independent of the government. ga (5-8,Ted ) Anyone else with a ? or ! ga (Bert) ? (5-8,Ted ) GA Bert (Bert) Rex and Carol, is there anything going on in the area there that we may not have touched on that should be considered of major significance? i.e. anything new on the "circles" or with animals etc. thx. ga (5-1,Vince) ! (5-5,Rex & Carol) Nothin new on the circles. Many people are heaing strange knockings on their doors, windows and aroun the house lately. Several sightings have been seen over electrical power substations, which mkes one think maybe they are stealing electricity. About half of our sightings have aircraft flying in the immediate vicinity. We are investigating a new case of an event of Christmas 1989 where a lady and her car were abducted for about 30 minutes. She recalls being 30 or so feet in the air with the car, descending toward the road. She remembers seeing two types of entities; two entities were about six feet tall with a lot of hair on their faces which appeared like animal hair. These two were dressed in white gowns like doctors. Four other entities were about three nd half feet tall and about as wide. She couldn't see their features. Fat greys? ga (5-8,Ted ) GA Vince (5-1,Vince) Oh Rex btw before I forget, FLY NAVY!ga (5-8,Ted ) Any other ?s GA (5-8,Ted ) I want to thank Rex and Carol Salisberry for sharing their evening with us. Also special thanks to Anne Ecker for putting up with Terry on this CO. Anne, Carol, Rex and Terry thanks for a wonderful and informative evening. GA (5-5,Rex & Carol) Thank you all. We've enjoyed it. (5-5,Terry) Nite gang. (5-6,Bruce G) Thx and Bye! (5-7,Paula) Thanks all! Bye! (5-1,Vince) Nite all (Bert) Thanks Rex and Carol. (5-8,Ted ) Matt? Where are you Matt? (5-1,Vince) Excellent co (Bert) Night all. -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: Ed Walters on photo analysis Message-ID: <1991Nov16.203852.13738@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:38:52 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 106 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3149 alt.conspiracy:8644 sci.skeptic:17724 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- The following is an open letter from Edward Walters, one of the primary witnesses in the Gulf Breeze UFO flap. He addresses the isssue as to who has examined his original photographs. He also indicates what he plans to eventually do with the originals. ------------------------------------------------------------- July 27, 1989 A few Gulf Breeze critics, and one in particular, have distorted the record as to the professional access and study of the original photos of the Gulf Breeze UFO. Here is a partial list of the experts who have studied the ORIGINALS. JIM TURNER, Photographer and film processing specialist CURT SHIELDS, Photographer and special effects specialist MARIE PRICE, Photographer, touch up expert AL AUDLEMAN, Photographer, re-photographing expert CHRISTOPHER STARK, Photographer, special effects specialist MARK CURTIS & replica specialist, ABC News DR. ROBERT NATHAN, Scientist, optics, etc. DR. ARNOLD PALMER, Astronomer DR. BRUCE MACCABEE, Physicist, Optics, etc. ROBERT OECHSLER, Analyst of polaroid film and chemistry DR. MARK CARLATTO, Computer analyst VINCENT DIPEITRO, Photographic analyst JOE GRECO, Photographic analysis scanning equipment RICHARD VANDENBERG, Photographic expert EDWARD WEIBE, Electronic engineer, computer analysis JOHN GARDNER, Acoustical physicist, video tape analysis DR. EBERT, computer analysis NBC photographers, and many, many photographers w/Cosgrove Productions This list goes on and on with others and their associates that I do not have the names of. Certainly this shows that the originals have not been withheld from skeptical study. The unanimous conclusion from the above: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE A HOAX. I have and will continue to withhold the originals from people like P. Klass and Willy Smith. Both proclaimed "hoax", before seeing the photos and listening to a single one of the dozens of other witnesses. Given their history of debunking and Smith's fake evidence hoax (discovered recently), it would be irrational to trust the originals in their hands. If the originals 'disappear' they could then argue "hoax" with their altered copies and we would not have the originals to prove that their copies had been tampered with. WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE ORIGINALS The protection of the originals is crucial in the support of the witness testimony. But....the testimony also supports the photos. One without the other means nothing. As Dr. Maccabee says, "A UFO photo does not a UFO make" .....therefore, the attempts to discredit my testimony by the debunkers has been severe. Distortions and misquotes have been fabricated with abandon. Locations and details have been intentionally changed leaving the unsuspecting listener or reader to believe that I am a hoaxer, prankster, ritual seance master, con man, and all the other witnesses are deluded. The documentation of the precise witness testimony is as necessary as the protection of the originals. They go hand in hand. During the past year it became obvious that a book was the only way to completely document my testimony. The media stories were not detailed and misquotes only allowed the critic to yell "hoax". When the testimony from the book is available to the public and all interested scientists, I will contract with a computer lab and have ALL the photos put on computer imaging tapes. The computer lab will not be asked to issue an analysis -- only supply clear, exact copies of the originals in the computer format. Requests from serious researchers to study the tapes will be encouraged. The originals will be safe, the documented testimony will be available and the tapes will further the technical study of the UFO. (signature) Edward Walters P.O. Box 715 Gulf Breeze, FL 32562 -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: GB: MUFON message - Maccabee talks about GB witnesses Message-ID: <1991Nov16.204022.13828@bilver.uucp> Date: 16 Nov 91 20:40:22 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 52 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3150 alt.conspiracy:8645 sci.skeptic:17725 The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- Date: 11-02-91 21:22 From: John Powell Subj: MUFON Meeting I just attended a Maryland MUFON meeting, (I guess you could call it a meeting but it seemed more like a mini-convention to me), and l heard some interesting stuff: [Disclaimer: I have great sympathy for reporters. It is _darn_ hard to listen and think _and_ take legible notes! ] Maccabee: -+------- Said he knows, by name, 12 other people who have clearly seen the UFO/Ed-craft. Showed a bunch of Red-light UFO videotape. Several different sequences where something is seen falling/dropping/lowered from the object. When analyzed, he said the odd thing about the 'light' that is 'dropped' is that it shows no detectable signs of acceleration - so whatever it is that's happenning isn't simply a dropped light/flare/etc... [Newton would be alarmed... ] He mentioned a significant GB sighting on 10/30 that was witnessed by many people and lasted 9 minutes. Because of the duration and the number of witnesses he suggested that there could be other implications. He stated again that he thinks GB, including Ed, is real and 'the most important event in UFOlogy today...' [That's not a direct quote.] He also mentioned that there have been several times when witnesses have seen kites and balloons with flares but these were infrequent and easily spotted. He mentioned a sneaky radar confirmation where a MUFON investigator, I think he said it was Morrison, witnessed a Red-light UFO, called an Air Traffic Controller at one of the Naval Air Stations in Gulf Breeze and claimed to be on a boat and 'saw something weird.' The Controller said they had spotted it too, had no idea what it was, but were already checking into it... In a next-day official inquiry the NAS said they tracked nothing... -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Note to Sea Wasp about "Logic" Message-ID: <1991Nov16.235224.29220@uwm.edu> Date: 16 Nov 91 23:52:24 GMT References: <1991Nov11.023027.3253@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> <1991Nov12.230532.931@ctr.columbia.edu> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Distribution: usa Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 30 In article <1991Nov12.230532.931@ctr.columbia.edu> twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: >As a side note, I think that if vibrational planers stopped saying >"vibrational" plane and just let it go as "different dimension", we'd >find their arguments more convincing. I wouldn't, it's just as bogus. "Vibration"? Of what? One poster said it was the vibration of atoms, which is the explanation for solid, liquid, and gaseous phases of matter. So is there such a thing as a supersolid (subsolid?). The phase after gas, is plasma, a fluid that is so hot the electrons are disassociated from the nuclei. Still, there is nothing mysterious about it. Are high "vibrational" creatures very low in density, and very high in temperature? That would make them even easier to detect. Mass is mass (unless it's energy :). On dimensions, well, maybe there are, but the correct terminology would be "different coordinate in one or more dimensions". If there are more than the four basic dimensions, they exist everywhere for everything and everybody, but certain things might exist at different points in that dimension. More details and definitions would be nice to make sense of the terms that people have been throwing around. >BTW - what's an OOBE? Sincere question - I may have been having them >lately. Out Of Body Experience. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!sjcupps From: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Message-ID: <1991Nov16.211054@IASTATE.EDU> Date: 17 Nov 91 03:10:54 GMT References: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Nov15.040000.15662@descartes.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: sjcupps@IASTATE.EDU (Sara J Cupps) Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 24 In article <1991Nov15.040000.15662@descartes.waterloo.edu>, cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton) writes: > In article ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue) writes: > >Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. > >M>twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users > >have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. > >Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting > >yourself into. > > > Damn right. God only knows what those alien visitors might be carrying. > * Uh-oh. Has anyone told the red-headed Julie Brown?* I may be lost in Obscurity, but don't worry, I have my towel. -- Sara J. Cupps "Inside my heart is breaking, no signature, only My makeup may be flaking a word for Freddie, But my smile still stays on. who is ill. The show must go on." -Freddie Mercury | Queen Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz> Date: 17 Nov 91 03:05:09 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 21 In article gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) writes: ]>In article <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: ]>> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in ]>> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody ]>> provide any references? ]> ]>Sorry, no reference, just my recollection of the event. ]> ]>While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe ]>the event had happened before he become president). It was nothing ]>spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon. ]> A few months later it swooped in and got the Republican nomination. Not long after that, poof, no more Carter. The nation was left muttering about 4 years of missing time ... -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1732 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERIOUS ORGANISM???? Message-ID: <1991Nov17.032230.25723@anasaz> Date: 17 Nov 91 03:22:30 GMT References: <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 39 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: ]>In article <1991Nov12.202122.14837@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes: ]>>If there's any subject that gets QUIETED down immediately, this is it! I ]>>suprised anything got out on ABC - maybe because nobody was watching the ]>>end of their noon program too closely. ]> ]>It wasn't ABC's noon program, it was an ABC affiliate's noon program. I ]>don't know how many other stations might have chosen to run that particular ]>report from the network, but from the lack of online discussion about it ]>I'd have to guess that either not very many did, or nobody with access to a ]>computer network was watching. ]> ]>Don Ecker on Paranet has repeatedly said that it's impossible to get anyone ]>to discuss the subject of human mutilations. You seem to think the two ]>subjects are linked. What is the connection? ]> If I knew that I'd have my own book out and wouldn't be asking for help on the net. I don't know Don Ecker but agree that the subject of human mutilations is shut down so tight, I even debated putting anything in here about it. If The two known human mutilation cases (Vietnam and White Plains, NY) that got initial publicity immediately disappeared from the press with no follow up. I'm hoping someone on the net will pick up some local reports about cattle mutilations, a seemingly unconnected, unidentified "blob" of organic material found nearby and human mutilations/disappearances. Or, cattle mutilations and intense military interest - when there is a cattle mutilation, does the military get in there fast and remove more chilling evidence. >-- > * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now > Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? > 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | > Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1732 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu!dhaley From: dhaley@isis.cs.du.edu (Dean Haley) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov17.131901.2196@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> Date: 17 Nov 91 13:19:01 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz> Sender: usenet@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (netnews admin account) Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept. Lines: 8 X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver for the Denver community. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users. >]>> I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in >]>> office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody >]>> provide any references? No referewnces, but a question. Is this the same president that swore that there were secret UFO files that he would make public when he became president, but after he was elected didn't release them? If not, what was his name? Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!zweig From: zweig@cs.uiuc.edu (Johnny Zweig) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Date: 17 Nov 91 23:06:04 GMT References: Sender: news@m.cs.uiuc.edu (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager)) Reply-To: zweig@cs.uiuc.edu Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL Lines: 6 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3156 alt.paranormal:3680 alt.angst:2551 kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >.. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? > Yeah. It won't do any good. The important damage has already been done. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal From: gtoal@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Graham Toal) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction Message-ID: <2595@tuegate.tue.nl> Date: 17 Nov 91 13:21:18 GMT References: <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@tuegate.tue.nl Reply-To: gtoal@stack.urc.tue.nl Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3157 alt.conspiracy:8656 sci.skeptic:17741 In article <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: ... Intro to posting... Don - You've got your own damn newsgroup for this stuff now; do you *still* need to crosspost to alt.conspiracy? It would have been quite suffient to have posted only the into article, with a pointer to alt.alien.visitors for people who wanted to read more. Regards Graham Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john From: john@anasaz (John Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> Date: 17 Nov 91 05:15:26 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 29 Keywords: In article <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: ]>Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime ]>is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been ]>studying asteroid strikes on earth. This assumes that when one does ]strike, ]>it kills a whole lot of people. I would point out that this risk is ]much ]>larger than your risk of being killed by either a plane crash or ]lighting, ]>and as an ex-Kansan, clearly larger than your risk of being killed by ]>a shark (non-lawyer) in Kansas. ]Wait a second! Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my ]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are ]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of ]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid? ]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we ]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths! Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not independent. ie... your math is bad. -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver From: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> Date: 17 Nov 91 17:30:54 GMT References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose) Reply-To: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 20 >]Wait a second! Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my >]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are >]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of >]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid? >]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we >]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths! > >Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid >strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not >independent. ie... your math is bad. > Uh oh! Seems my math is bad! Honestly, I don't understand how you can come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an asteroid during my lifetime. To me, those look really really high. I'd more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or what have you. The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this answer is based on? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 17 Nov 91 18:01:52 GMT References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> Sender: news@unix.cis.pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 24 In article <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: >Uh oh! Seems my math is bad! Honestly, I don't understand how you can >come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an >asteroid during my lifetime. To me, those look really really high. I'd >more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or >what have you. The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if >you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this >answer is based on? Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus, all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000. Remember, large lifeforms (like us) will probably be severely damaged by both direct and indirect (nuclear-winter type) effects of the blast. So if you figure that you have a 50/50 chance of dying if an asteroid hits, then maybe it's one in 20,000 -- but that's the same order of magnitude, anyway... Sea Wasp Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!raven.alaska.edu!decwrl!zazen!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!tulane!samsung!mips!apple!claris!szebra!spectrx!root From: root@spectrx Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: AIDS Message-ID: Date: 17 Nov 91 23:42:30 GMT References: <91318.152550ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: SPECTROX SYSTEMS (408)252-1005 Lines: 13 ELT103@psuvm.psu.edu (Eric L. Tissue) writes: > Everyone thinks that condoms are safe against the HIV virus.. Maybe you shou > twice know, because a new study in New York shows that several condom users > have gotten some sort of disease even though they use them regularly. > Well maybe next time you should think twice about what you could be getting > yourself into. so what is this supposed to mean, don't have sex with aliens? -- spectrx.saigon.com!root (Postmaster Account) SPECTROX SYSTEMS (408)252-1005 Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho From: drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <1991Nov18.025021.21301@wpi.WPI.EDU> Date: 18 Nov 91 02:50:21 GMT References: <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov10.143022.12068@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17756 talk.religion.newage:7712 alt.atheism:18045 alt.alien.visitors:3162 In article <1991Nov10.143022.12068@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >In article <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: >> Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical >>one. > >worlds OTHER than the physical one? you mean fantasy worlds. Yes religeon >is about escaping from reality to find the inner truths of ones fantasies. > How can you say definitively that there are no real universes outside this physical one? There's no way to confirm (or deny) the existence of such worlds because, by definition, they would be outside this universe, and therefore unreachable and untestable. (Except of course for the folks who claim to have seen/travelled to these places, but that's a different topic.) >No but you forget religeon keeps poking its nose into the real world. It >talks of Creation,Noas Ark, Heaven Hell. These are all things purlorted to >really exist. Heaven and Hell definitely fall into the realm of "outside this universe." "Creation" implies "before Creation", which also falls outside this universe. Noah's Ark is the only thing you mentioned that might be testable. >The bible is taken as TRUTH but the bible has myths whose >setting is the real physical world. Obviously this will clash with science. True. I think the Bible contains much more metaphor than fact; especially the Old Testament. > >ALEX BUNKER --E.V.L. (drwho@wpi.wpi.edu) # Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # But what I really want is to direct. devastatingly true, except the bits # that are lies." --Douglas Adams # Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: A psychiatrist's view of abductions (technical) Message-ID: <1991Nov17.191626.30@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Nov 91 19:16:26 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 628 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3163 sci.skeptic:17759 The following is about PTSD and it's effects on UFO abductees. ------Begin included text------------------------------------------- RIMA E. LAIBOW, M.D. Child and Adult Psychiatry Cerridwen 13 Summit Terrace Dobbs' Ferry, NY 10522 (914)693-3081 CLINICAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN EXPECTED AND OBSERVED DATA IN PATIENTS REPORTING UFO ABDUCTIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT ABSTRACT: IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT THIS PAPER MAKES NO ATTEMPT TO ASSIGN OR WITHHOLD EXTERNAL VALIDITY RELATIVE TO UFO ABDUCTION SCENARIOS. Patients who believe themselves to be UFO abductees are a heterogeneous group widely dispersed along demographic and cultural lines. Careful examination of these patients and their abduction reports presents four areas of significant discrepancy between expected and observed data. Implications for the treatment of patients presenting UFO abduction scenarios are discussed. INTRODUCTION If a patient were to confide to a therapist that he had been abducted by aliens who took him aboard a UFO and performed a series of medical procedures and examinations on him it is not likely that the patient would find either a receptive ear or a respectful and non-judgemental response from the therapist. The material presented would lie so far outside the confines of our personal and cultural belief system that it would seem intolerably anomalous to most of us. We would probably dismiss or repudiate it using a few comfortable and familiar assumptions which hold so much obvious wisdom that they do not require specific examination. When events which are too anomalous to allow their incorporation into our world schema are presented to us, we are likely to dismiss them by using assumptions based in out currently operative world view. This effectively precludes the open evaluation of the anomaly. Hence, the "expressible" response of most clinical and lay individuals upon hearing a UFO abduction account would be an immediate dismissal of even the possibility that such an episode might occur. Close upon the heels of that determination the rapid and complete pathologization of the person offering such an account would follow. Dream states, suggestibility, poor reality testing, outright dissembling or frank psychosis are customarily offered and accepted as evident and reasonable organizing models by which the production of this material may be understood. These are typical maneuvers by which the presentation of information which challenges schematic assumptions is dismissed or screened out before the assumptions can be adequately tested for predictive reliability and accuracy. Such testing is highly desirable, however, because it offers us the opportunity to apply the scientific method to our current level of theorital sophistication and thereby refine our understanding of reality further still. Of course, this process is severely impeded when the new data is excluded from consideration strictly because it is too anomalous for assessment. Westrum has offered a model by which events become "hidden" and therefore remain anomalous to the perception of society in a circular process: the hidden event is disbelieved and its disbelief helps to keep it hidden. Citing the lengthy period during which battered children and their battering parents remained hidden, Westrum states: "An event is hidden if its occurrence is so implausible that those who observe it hesitate to report it because they do not expect to be believed. The implausibility may cause the observer to doubt his own perceptions, leading to the event's denial or mis identification. Should the observer nonetheless make a report, he/she can expect to be treated with incredulity or even ridicule. Since the existence of a hidden event is contrary to what science, society, and perhaps even the observer believes, the event remains hidden because of strong social forces which interfere with reporting. The actual degree of underreporting is sometimes difficult to believe, a skepticism which itself acts as a deterrent to taking seriously those reports which do surface." (1) But for the clinician who spends a moment before reaching these "obvious" and "intuitive" conclusions, several fascinating and potentially productive questions present themselves. If we refrain for a short period from dismissing this material out-of-hand, we find that there are at least four areas of puzzling and important discrepancy between our intuitive sense of order and the data presented by the patient. These discrepancies force us to re-examine our assumptions in light of a demonstrated failure of the theory to account for the observed phenomena. This process, while taxing and challenging, is nonetheless, the way we systemize our understanding of human health and pathology. Noting the previously un-noted and using it to refine our conceptual framework leads to better prediction and therefore to better treatment. It is not the purpose of this paper to ascribe relative reality to the experience of abduction reported by some patients. Rather, precisely because it lies outside the realm of clinical expertise to assess with certainty whether these events actually occurred or if they are mere fantasy, it is mandatory for the clinician to examine the impact of these experiences, whatever their source, upon the patient. This must be done in a clear sighted and open-minded fashion so that the impact of the experiences may be dealt with rather than made into hidden events. AREAS OF DISCREPANCY 1. ABSENCE OF MAJOR PSYCHOPATHOLOGY: It is intuitively seductive (and perhaps comfortable) for us to assume that psychotic-level functioning will necessarily be present in a person claiming to be a UFO abductee. If this level of distortion and delusion is present, a patient would be expected to demonstrate some other evidence of reality distortion. Pathology of this magnitude would not be predicted to be present in a well integrated, mature and non-psychotic individual. Instead, we would expect clinical and psychometric tools to reveal serious problems in numerous areas both inter- and interpersonally. It would be highly surprising if otherwise well-functioning persons were to demonstrate a single area of floridly psychotic distortion. Further, if this single idea fix were totally circumscribed, non-invasive and discrete, that in itself would be highly anomalous. Well-developed, fixed delusional states with numerous elaborated and sequential components are not seen in otherwise healthy individuals. Prominent evidence of deep dysfunction would be expected to pervade many areas of the patient's life. One would predict that if the abduction experience were the product of delusional or other psychotic states, it would be possible to detect such evidence through the clinical and psychometric tools available to us. This points to the first important discrepancy: individuals claiming alien abduction frequently show no evidence of past or present psychosis, delusional thinking, reality-testing deficits, hallucinations or other significant psychopathology despite extensive clinical evaluation. Instead, there is a conspicuous absence of psychopathology of the magnitude necessary to account for the production of floridly delusional and presumably psychotic material.(2) In order to test this startling and anomalous information, a group of subjects who believe they have been abducted by aliens (9, 5 male, 4 female) were asked to participate in a psychometric evaluation. An experienced clinical psychologist carried out an investigation using projection tests (Rorschach, TAT, Draw a Person and the MMPI) and the Wechler Adult Intelligence Scale. The examining clinician was told "the subjects were being evaluated to determine similarities and differences in personality structure, as well as psychological strengths and weaknesses". All of the subjects actively refrained from sharing UFO-related experiences with the examiner and she was unaware of this theme in their lives. The investigator found that commonalties were not strongly present and that: "while the subjects are quite heterogeneous in their personality styles, there is a modicum of homogeneity in several respects: (1) relatively high intelligence with concomitant richness of inner life; (2) relative weakness in the sense of identity, especially sexual identity; (3) concomitant vulnerability in the inter- personal realm; (4) a certain orientation towards alertness which is manifest alternately in a certain perceptual sophistication and awareness or in inter- personal hyper-vigilance and caution.... Perhaps the most obvious and prominent impression left by the nine subjects is the range of personality styles the present.... There is little to unite them as a group from the standpoint of the overt manifestations of their personalities.... They [are] very distinctive unusual and interesting subjects. [But] "Along with above average intelligence, richness in mental life, and indications of narcissistic identity disturbance, the nine subjects also share some degree of impair- ment in personal relationships. For [some] subjects, problems in intimacy are manifest more in great sensitivity to injury and loss than in lack of intimacy and relatedness. [Ad] "...The last salient dimension of impairment in the interpersonal realm relates to a certain mildly paranoid and disturbing streak in many of the subjects, which renders them very wary and cautious about involving themselves with others. It is significant that all but one of the subjects had modest elevations on the MMPI paranoia scale relative to their other scores. Such modest elevations mean that we are not dealing with blatant paranoid symptomology but rather over-sensitivity, defensiveness and fear of criticism and susceptibility to feeling pressured. To summarize, while this is a heterogeneous group in terms of overt personality style, it can be said that most of its members share being rather unusual and very interesting. They also share brighter than average intelligence and a certain rich- ness of inner life that can operate favorably in terms of creativity or disadvantageously to the extent that it can be overwhelming. Shared underlying emotional factors include a degree of identity disturbance, some deficits in the interpersonal sphere, and generally mild paranoia phenomena (hypersensitivity, wariness, etc.)" (3) Her findings demonstrate a uniform lack of the significant psychopathology which would be necessary to account for these experiences if abduction experiences do represent the psychotic or delusional states predicted by current theory. When the examiner was informed of the true reason for the selection of the subjects for this evaluation (i.e., their shared belief that they had been exposed to alien abductions), she wrote an addendum to the original report re- examining the findings of the testing in the light of the new data. In it she states: "The first and most critical question is whether our subjects' reported experiences could be accounted for strictly on the basis of psychopathy, i.e., mental disorder. The answer is a firm no. In broad terms, if the reported abductions were confabulated fantasy productions, based on what we know about psychological disorders, they could only have come from pathological liars, paranoid schizophrenics, and severely disturbed and extraordinarily rare hysteroid characters subject to fugue states and/or multiple personality shifts... It is important to note that not one of the subjects, based on test data, falls into any of these categories. Therefore, while testing can do nothing to prove the veracity of the UFO abduction reports, one can conclude that the test findings are not inconsistent with the possibility that reported UFO abductions have, in fact, occurred. In other words, there is no apparent psychological explanation for their reports." (4) 2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTED DATA: The second point of intriguing discrepancy follows from this surprising absence of evidence of a common thread of severe and reality-distorting psychopathology to account for the patient's bizarre assertions. They claim that they have been abducted, sometimes repeatedly over nearly the whole course of their lives, by aliens who have communicated with them and carried out procedures much like medical examinations. Persons reporting these experiences are seen to be psycho-dynamically varied. They are also demographically varied. Reports of this basic scenario, numbering in the hundreds, have now been recorded. Even though the reporters range from individuals as diverse as a mestizo Brazilian farmer(5),an American corporate lawyer (6), and a Mid- Western minister(7), there is a perplexing and intriguing concordance of features in these reports. Certain details of the scenarios repeat themselves with disturbing regularity no matter what the educational, national, social, experiential or other demographic characteristics of the reporter. In the production of dreams, reveries, poetry, fantasies and psychotic states, while the general themes of concern may be identified easily between individuals, the specific symbolization, concretion, abstraction and representation of those themes is relatively indiosyncratic for each individual. This of course necessitates careful empathic and attentive listening on the clinician's part to gather both the general flavor and specific meaning of the elements of the fantasy state. This careful listening often means that a personal symbolic representational system can be unraveled and its contents can be rendered less mysterious to the patient. In the abduction scenarios however, both specific details and themes repeat themselves with surprising regularity: In general, the appearance and modus operandi of the aliens, their effect and procedures, their tools and interests, their crafts and physical features all tally from report to report with a high rate of concordance. (8,9,10) This intriguing fact seems impervious to the socio-economic, educational, national, or cultural background of the abductee. Similarly, whether the individual has had previous contact with the literature of abduction seems to make little difference in this vein since the reports of individuals who can be shown to have had no exposure to abduction literature also contains these common features. Skilled practitioners and investigators report in these cases that they are convinced that each of these subjects was being wholly truthful in his/her report. The concordance of both content and event in these reports makes them unlike any other fantasy-generated material with which I am familiar. Indeed, investigators like Hopkins and others claim they have intentionally withheld dissemination of certain important, frequently reported aspects of the abduction scenarios in order to provide a "check" on the material being presented to them by individuals who may have had access to this literature since abductees may have been influenced at either the conscious or the unconscious level by it. In these cases as well, the features which have previously been published as well as those withheld are both produced by the abductee (11). In instances in which the patient has read some of the abductee literature, this previously withheld material may be offered to the investigator with a sense of personal invalidation, apology and embarrassment. He often expresses concern that this information is less likely to be believed than the other material with which he is already familiar. (12) Jung and others have written widely about the use of archetypes and the collective awareness of themes and images which are asserted to present themselves in a world-wide and multi-personal way. The amount of individual variation and creative latitude demonstrated within the closed system of archetypes and collected creativity is vast. Those who pose such universals detect their presence in the complex and highly idiosyncratic presentations and guises which they are given by the unconscious mind of the patient and the artist. This disguise is idiosyncratic, they hold, precisely because a set of available images is being used to work and rework the personal realities of the individual against the background of the collective. But the abductee does not seem to be involved in the reworking of personal mythologies against the canvas of the race's mythology. The details and contents of the scenarios seem, upon extensive investigation, to bear little thematic relevance to the issues inherent in the life of the abductee. Intensive follow up investigation frequently yields no thematic, archetypical, primary process symbolic meaning to the shape or activities of the abductors and the scenario of the abduction itself. Instead, therapeutic work in these cases centers around the issues inherent in the powerlessness and vulnerability of the individual even is this were not a prominent theme in his life before the putative abduction. In other words, the customary richness of association and creativity found in the examination of dreams and other fantasy material is lacking with regard to the scenario and presentation of the aliens who abduct and manipulate the patient in the abduction story. If the abduction material is indeed archetypal or fantasy generated in nature, this is a new class of archetypes. These archetypes demand rather exact representation and mythic presentation since the activities and behavior of the aliens is rather invariant within a narrow latitude regardless of the other dream and fantasy themes of the patient. 3. ABDUCTION SCENARIOS AND HYPNOSIS. Members of both the lay and professional communities frequently assume that material referring to UFO abduction scenarios is retrieved under hypnosis. Since it is generally believed that people under hypnosis are open to the implantation of suggestions through the overt or covert influence of the hypnotist it is concluded that this material reproduces the hypnotists' expectations or interests. It is further concluded that since the hypnotist "put it there" the abduction could not be accounted for as material which emerges solely from the patient's end of dyad. Thus, the abduction scenarios are commonly dismissed as merely representing the production of desired material by compliant subjects. The abductees strong sense of personal conviction that this really happened to him during the session itself and upon recall of the session is similarly dismissed as an artifact of the process by which the fantasies were generated. Several compelling factors mitigate against the facile dismissal of data in this way. Firstly, about 20% of these highly concordant abduction scenarios are available spontaneously at the level of conscious awareness prior to hypnosis. (13,14) These accounts may be enhanced or subjected to further elaboration through the use of hypnosis or other recall enhancement techniques, but in a significant number of people producing abduction scenarios the recall is initially produced without recourse to such techniques. If their stories were substantially different from the concordant abduction scenarios produced under regressive hypnosis, a different phenomenon would be taking place. However, given the perplexing clinical presentation of similar stories from dissimilar people who are uninformed about one another's experience, this presents another highly interesting area of discrepancy. Hopkins has classified patterns of abduction recall into five categories: Type 1. patients consciously recall parts of the full abduction scenario without hypnotic or other techniques designed to aid recall. The emergence of this material may be delayed. Type 2. patients recall the UFO sighting, surrounding circumstances and/or aliens, but do not recall the abduction itself. Only a perceived gap in time indicates any anomalous occurrence. Type 3. patients recall a UFO and/or hominids but nothing else. There is no sense of time lapse or dislocation. Type 4. patients recall only a time lapse or dislocation. No UFO abduction scenario is recalled without the use of specific retrieval techniques. Type 5. patients recall noting relating to UFO or abduction scenarios. Instead they experience discrepant emotions ranging from uneasy suspicions that "something happened to me" to intense, ego-dystonic fears of specific locations, conditions or actions. They may also exhibit unexplained physical wounds and/or recurring dreams of abduction scenario content which are not fixed in their experience as to place and time. (15) Examination of the transcripts of hypnotic sessions which yield abduction material reveals that although subjects are sufficiently suggestible to enter the trance state as directed by the therapist, they resist having material "injected" into their account. They customarily refuse to be "lead" or distracted by the therapist's attempts to change either the focus or content of their report. The subject characteristically insists upon correcting errors or distortions suggested or implied by the hypnotist during the session. Hence it is difficult to account for the similarities and concordances of these scenarios through the mechanism of suggestibility when these subjects so steadfastly refuse to be lead by hypnotists. In fact, it is even more striking that while these patients feel the material which they are producing both in and out of hypnosis as experientially "real", nonetheless they frequently seek to discount or explain away this bizarre and frightening material. This remains true even though sharing it regularly results in a significant remission of anxiety- related symptoms and discomfort. These abduction scenarios are so ego-alien that they have frequently not shared the material with anyone at all or with only a highly select group of trusted intimates. In the vast preponderance of cases patients are reluctant to allow themselves to be publicly identified as having had these experiences since the perceive that the abduction scenario is so highly anomalous that they expect to experience ridicule and repudiation if they become associated with it publicly. It therefore functions like a guilty secret in the way that rape has (and, unfortunately still does in some cases). After the material is produced and explored, these subjects often experience a marked degree of relief. This is true with reference both to previously identified symptomatic behaviors and other anxiety manifestations not noted on initial assessment. These other symptoms may remit after enhanced recall of the scenario and its details takes place. It is interesting to note that while the scenarios may contain a good deal of highly traumatic material specifically related to reproductive functioning, these episodes are nearly uniformly free of subjective erotic charge when either the manifest or latent contents are examined. 4. POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER (PTSD) IN THE ABSENCE OF EXTERNAL TRAUMA: PTSD was first described in the content of battle fatigue (16). Although it may present in a wide variety of clinical guises (17) PTSD is currently understood as a disorder which occurs in the context of intolerable externally induced trauma which floods the victim with anxiety and/or depression when his overwhelmed and paralyzed ego defenses prove inadequate to the task of organizing unbearably stressful events. In the service of the patient's urgent attempt to still the tides of disorganizing anxiety, fear or guilt<18> which accompany the emergence of cognitive, sensory or emotional recall of these traumatic events, the trauma itself may be either partly or completely unavailable to conscious recall. <19>...Both physical and psychological responses to the trauma are profound and pervasive. PTSD follows overwhelming real-life trauma and is not known to present as a sequel to internally generated fantasy states.<20> This fourth area of discrepancy between predicted and observed data is perhaps the most striking and challenging. Patients who produce alien abduction material in the absence of psycopathology severe enough to account for it often show the clinical picture of PTSD. This is remarkable when one considers that it is possible that no traumatic event occured except that rooted only in fantasy. These trauma are, in large measure, split off, denied and repressed as they are in other occurrences of PTSD. As discussed above, these scenarios frequently appear in individuals who are otherwise free of any indication of significant emotional and psychological instability or pre-existing severe psycopathology. On careful clinical assessment, these memories do not appear to fill the intrapsychic niches usually occupied by psychotic or psycho-neurotic formulations. The abduction scenarios do not encapsulate or ward off unacceptable impulses, they do not define split off affects, they are not used either to stabilize or to divert current or archaic patterns of behavior nor do they provide secondary gain or manipulative control for the individual. Instead, this material, experienced by the patient as unwelcome and totally ego-dystonic, seems quite consistently to be woven into the fabric of the patient's internal life only in terms of his reactive response to the stress inherent in these experiences and the contents of the repressed material related to the stressful memories. But the extent of this secondary response can be extensive. It should be noted that PTSD has not previously been thought to occur following trauma which has been generated solely by internally states. If abduction scenarios are in fact fantasies, then our understanding of PTSD need to be suitably broadened to account for this heretofore unexpected correlation. In addition, there are significant clinical implications to the finding of abduction scenario material in a patient who shows PTSD but is otherwise free of significant psychopathology. Since abduction scenario material presents several crucial areas of anomaly and discrepancy between what is known and that which is observed. It is very important for the therapist to refrain from the comfortable (for the therapist, at least) description of psychotic functioning to the patient who produces this material until such disturbance is, in fact, demonstrated and corroborated by the presence of other signs beside the UFO-related material. It is imperative for the therapist to adopt a non-judgemental stance. He can attend to the distress of the patient without attempting to confirm or deny possibilities which are outside the specific area of his expertise. The clinician should adopt as his therapeutic priority the alleviation of the PTSD symptomology through the use of appropriate and acceptable methods specific to the treatment of PTSD. In addition, the therapist must remember that while he may have strong convictions pro or con the abduction actually having occurred, it is not within either his capability or expertise to make such a judgement with total certainty. Furthermore, as the clinical psychologist who evaluated the nine abductees pointed out in her addendum, the sophistication of the psychotherapies has not advanced to the point at which this determination can be made on the basis of currently available information (21), although the treatment of post traumatic symptomology is currently understood. Hence, it is important for the therapist to retain the same non-judgemental and helpful stance necessary to the successful treatment of any other traumatic insult. When a therapist labels material as either unacceptable or insane, the burden of the patient is increased. If the therapist is reacting out of prejudices which reflect his own closely-held beliefs rather than his complete certainty, he unfairly increases the distress of the patient. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS: Although it has long been the "common wisdom" of both the professional and lay communities that anyone claiming to be the victim of abduction by UFO occupants must be seriously disturbed, thoroughly deluded or a liar, careful examination of both the reports and their reports calls this assumption into question. Clinical and psychometric investigation of abductees reveals four areas of discrepancy between the expected data and the observable phenomena and suggests further investigation. These discrepant areas are: 1. ABSENCE OF PSYCHOPATHOLOGY An unexpected absence of severe psychopathology coupled with the high level of functioning found in many abductees is a perplexing and surprising finding. Psychometric evaluation of nine abductees revealed a notable heterogeneity of psychological and psychometric characteristics. The major area of homogeneity was in the absence of significant psychopathology. Rather than consulting a subset of the severely disturbed and psychotic population, there is clinical evidence that at least some abductees are high functioning, healthy individuals. This interesting discrepancy requires further investigation. 2. CONCORDANCE OF REPORTS Highly dissimilar people produce strikingly similar accounts of abductions by UFO occupants. The basic scenarios are highly concordant in detail and events. This is surprising in light of the widely divergent cultural, socio-economic, educational, occupational, intellectual and emotional status of abductees. Further, the scenarios themselves do not seem to show the same layering of affect and symbolic richness present in other fantasy endowed material. Instead, symbolic and conceptual complexity centers around the meaning of the experience for the individual, not around the shape, form, activity, intent, etc., of the aliens and their environment. This is in stark contrast to the expected complexity and diversity of thematic and symbolic elaboration found in our fantasy material. 3. RESISTANCE TO SUGGESTION UNDER HYPNOSIS Abduction scenario concordance is frequently attributed to the introduction of material into the suggestible mind of a hypnotized patient. Examination of abduction reports indicates that a significant percentage of these reports emerge into conscious awareness prior to the use of hypnosis or other techniques employed to stimulate recall. Furthermore abductees resist being lead or diverted during hypnosis and regularly insist on correcting the hypnotist so that their report remains accurate according to their own perceptions. 4. PTSD IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAUMA Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) has not been previously reported in patients experiencing overwhelming stress predicted only in internally generated states such as psychotic delusional systems or phobias. But patients reporting abduction frequently show classic signs and symptoms of PTSD. Like other kinds of PTSD it is subject to clinical intervention which frequently leads to substantial clinical improvement. But in order for this improvement to occur, the patient must be treated for the PTSD he exhibits rather than the psychotic state he is presumed to display by virtue of his abduction report. If the abduction scenarios represent only a fantasy state, then it is worth investigating why (and how) this particular highly concordant and deeply disturbing fantasy is involved in the pathogenesis of a condition otherwise seen only following externally induced trauma. Further, if this is found to be the case, the nature of PTSD itself should be re-examined in light of this finding. Alternatively, it may be that the trauma is, in fact, an external one which has taken place and the post traumatic state represents an expected response on the part of a traumatized patient. It is not within the area of expertise of the clinician to make an accurate determination about the objective validity of UFO abduction events. But it is certainly within his purview to assist the patient in regaining a sense of appropriate mastery, anxiety reduction and the alleviation of the clinical symptomalogy as efficiently and effectively as possible. This is best accomplished through an assessment the patient's *actual* state of psycho-dynamic organization, not his *presumed* state. In other words, in order to make the diagnosis of a psychotic or delusional state, findings other than the presence of a belief in UFO abduction must be present. In the absence of other indications of severe psychopathology, it is inappropriate to treat the patient as if he were afflicted with such psychopathology. It lies outside the realm of clinical expertise to determine with absolute certainty whether or not a UFO abduction has indeed taken place. Patients should not be viewed as demonstrating prima facie evidence of pervasive psychotic dysfunction because of the abduction material alone nor should they be hospitalized or treated with anti-psychotic medication based solely on the presence of UFO abduction scenarios. Instead, they should be assessed on the basis of their overall psychologic state. Unless otherwise indicated, treatment should be focused on the PTSD symptomatology and its repair. The areas of discrepancy which arise from the examination of UFO abductees between the expected clinical finding and the observed ones highlight interesting questions which require further investigation into the nature and impact of fantasy on psycho-dynamic states and symptom formation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (1)Westrum, R., Social Intelligence About Hidden Events, Knowledge:Creation, Diffusion, Utilization, Vol 3 No 3, March 1982, p.382 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (2)Hopkins, B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions. New York, Richard Marek 1981. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (3)Slater, E., Ph.D. "Conclusions on Nine Psychologicals" in Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO Abductees" Mt Ranier, MD, 1985 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (4)Slater, E., Ph.D. Addendum to "Conclusions on Nine Psychological" in Final Report on the Psychological Testing of UFO "Abductees", op.cit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (5)Creighton, G. "The Amazing Case of Antonio Villas Boas" in Rogo, D>S>, ed., Alien Abductions. New York, New American Library, pp. 51-83, 1980. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (6)Hopkins,B. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions. op.cit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (7)Druffel,A. "Harrison Bailey and the 'Flying Saucer Disease'" in Rogo, S.D., ed., op.cit. pp. 122-137 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (8)Strieber, W. Communion. New York, Avon, 1987 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (9)Fowler, R. The Andreasson Affair. New York, Bantam Books, 1979 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (10)Fuller, J. The Interrupted Journey. New York, Dell, 1966 --------------------------------------- (11)Hopkins, B. Intruders: The Incredible Visitation at Copley Woods. New York, Random House, 1987 -------------------------------------- (12)Hopkins, B. Personal communications with the author about the more than 200 abductees whom Mr. Hopkins has investigated both with and without the use of hypnosis. --------------------------------------- (13)Westrum, R. personal communication with the author. --------------------------------------- (14)Hopkins, B. personal communication with the author. --------------------------------------- (15)Hopkins, B. "The Investigation of UFO Reports" in The Spectrum of UFO Research. Proceedings of the Second CUFOS Conference (September 25-27, 1981), Hynek, M. ed., pp 171-2, Chicago, J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, 1988. --------------------------------------- (16)Kardiner, A., The Traumatic Neuroses of War. New York, P. Hoeber, 1941 --------------------------------------- (17)van Der Kolk, B.A., Psychological Trauma. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Press, 1987 --------------------------------------- (18)Horowitz,M.J., Stress Response Syndromes. New York, Jason Aronson,1976 --------------------------------------- (19)van Der Kolk, op.cit. --------------------------------------- (20)American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 3rd ed. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 1980 --------------------------------------- (21)Slater, op.cit. --------------------------------------- =END= Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Bio file of some UFO researchers Message-ID: <1991Nov17.191827.103@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Nov 91 19:18:27 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 494 The following is a short bio of some of the researchers involved in MUFON. ------Begin included text--------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DESCRIPTION OF MUFON BIOGRAPHY SERIES OF ARTICLES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The MUFONET-BBS Network is proud to present this series of short biographies concerning researchers involved in UFO and related scientific fields. The biographies are provided with the approval of the Mutual UFO Network, (MUFON) 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas 78155. The biographies are brief, covering basic education and experience of each individual and their respective field(s) of pursuit. These files in no way contain all the biographical information about an individual, but are offered to provide some understanding of the researcher's background. John Komar Administrator - MUFONET-BBS Network State Director - Tennessee/MUFON -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 JOHN S. CARPENTER ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John S. Carpenter obtained his Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology from DePauw University. He then received a Masters of Social Work from Washington University in St. Louis. He was trained in Clinical Hypnosis at the Menninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas in 1980. In 1983 he joined the Academy of Certified Social Workers. He has been a member of the American Group Psychotherapy Association for Marriage and Family Therapy. For the last twelve years he has provided individual therapy, group therapy, marriage counseling, and family therapy for a wide variety of hospitalized psychiatric patients in the Springfield, Missouri region. Parallel to his professional growth is his long-standing interest in UFOs ---ever since he could first read as a little boy. He became the State Section Director in the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) for counties in southwest Missouri in 1988 and began receiving referrals for investigative research and hypnotherapy with alleged abductees from other researchers such as Budd Hopkins, Stanton Friedman, Walt Andrus, Linda Howe and Ted Phillips. He was involved in the professional conferences -- TREAT I in 1989, and 1991's National Conference on Anomalous Experiences held in Philadelphia. He has been a speaker for the 1989 Close Encounters Forum in Aspen, Colorado, the 1990 SHOW-ME Conference in Missouri, the 1991 Ozark UFO Conference in Eureka Springs, and now the 1991 International MUFON UFO Symposium in Chicago. He and several of his cases were featured in Linda Howe's 1990 documentary sequel to her Emmy Award-winning "A Strange Harvest". More recently, John has received international recognition for his investigative hypnosis with Gerald Anderson, a saucer crash witness from 1947, referred by Stanton Friedman. His research into the abduction mystery has taken him to work with people from many different geographical locations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 Michael M. Chorost ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael M. Chorost was born in 1964 in Elizabeth, New Jersey. He received his B.A. from Brown University and a M.A. in English Literature from the University of Texas as Austin in 1990. Michael is now working toward a Ph.D. in Renaissance Literature and Philosophy of Language. After becoming intrigued with the mystery of the crop circle phenomenon, during June and July 1990, he traveled to England spending three weeks studying the enigma firsthand. Mr. Chorost published his first article on the subject, titled "The Summer 1990 Crop Circles" coauthored with Colin Andrews in the December 1990 issue of the "MUFON UFO JOURNAL". He serves on the MUFON staff as the Crop Circles Specialist. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 STANTON T. FRIEDMAN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nuclear Physicist-Lecturer Stanton T. Friedman has managed to carve out three different professional careers since receiving his M.S. Degree in Physics from the University of Chicago in 1956. His employers have included General Electric, General Motors, Aerojet General Nucleonics, Westinghouse and TRW. The programs involved nuclear aircraft, fission and fusion rockets and nuclear systems for space applications. He first became interested in UFOs in 1958. Between 1970 and 1982 he devoted full time to lecturing, investigating, and writing about UFOs. He has now given his always changing program "Flying Saucers Are Real" at more than 600 colleges and to dozens of professional groups in all 50 states, in 8 provinces of Canada, in Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia and in England. Stanton moved to Fredericton, New Brunswick, in 1980. Since 1982, he has combined continued lecturing with a busy career as a science consultant working in such areas as food irradiation, seed stimulation with radiation, the recovery of waste heat from power plants, the use of electron accelerators for commercial applications and flue gas treatment to reduce acid rain emissions. He was awarded $16,000, the largest research grant ever made by the Fund for UFO Research, to continue his extensive research into the validity of Operations Majestic - 12 and the story behind the Roswell crash. Over the years he has visited a total of 14 different document archives. He has also appeared on hundreds of radio and TV programs including "Nightline", "Merv Griffin" and a host more. He was very heavily involved in the writing and filming of the prize winning documentary movie "UFOs Are real" and also participated in several others including "UFO Cover-UP?...Live". He has spoken at more MUFON symposia, than anyone, starting in 1971, attesting to his popularity. He was elected to the MUFON Board of Directors in 1990 as Director of Special Investigations, having served as a Consultant in Nuclear Physics since 1972. he will coauthor a new book on Roswell with Don Berliner in 1991 or early 1992. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 LINDA MOULTON HOWE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Linda Moulton Howe is a graduate of Stanford university with a Masters Degree in Communications. She has devoted her film and television career to documentary and studio productions concerning science, medicine and the environment. Miss Howe has received local, national and international awards, including three regional Emmies for her documentaries. One honored "A Strange Harvest", a film which explored the worldwide animal mutilation mystery which haunted the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Central and South America, Australia, parts of Europe and the Canary Islands off the African coast since the late 1960's -- and continues to date. In 1989, she produced a synthesis of her last ten years of research and personal experiences with the alien phenomena in a book entitled "An Alien Harvest - Further Evidence Linking Animal Mutilation and Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms". She also worked in 1989 as Director of International Programming for "Earthbeat," an environmental series broadcast on WTBS Superstation from Atlanta. Linda is developing a paperback edition of her book "An Alien Harvest". Her most recent television productions in 1990 included the creation of the CNN Reel News series for theater release in New York City; a two-hour special "Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms" in association with WATL/FOX 36 in Atlanta, Georgia; and a half-hour documentary about International child survival efforts for UNICEF, New York, entitled "The Pressure of Fact." 1991: Supervising Producer and Writer, "Mysteries of the Universe" Hour Special for the Fox network. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 DAVID M. JACOBS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David M. Jacobs is Associate Professor of History at Temple University, specializing in twentieth century American History. He has been a UFO Researcher for twenty-five years. He wrote his doctoral disertatation in the field of intellectual history at the University of Wisconsin, Madison in 1973 on the controversy over UFOs in America. His first book, "The UFO Controversy In America", was published by Indiana University Press (1975). It remains the only book that takes a positive viewpoint toward UFOs ever published by an academic press. He has given numerous speeches and written many articles and papers on the subject of UFOs. he is a Consultant in history to MUFON. For the past fourteen years he has offered the only regularly scheduled undergraduate course on UFOs at any university in the U.S.A. In recent years he has turned his attention exclusively to the UFO abduction phenomenon. he has conducted over 300 hypnotic regressions. he and Budd Hopkins recently put on a conference at Temple University for researchers, psychiatrists, psychologists, and other therapists from around the country on the abduction phenomenon. He is the recipient with Budd Hopkins of a $200,000 grant to conduct a poll to discern the magnitude of the abduction phenomenon and to compile compendium of abduction accounts. His new book "Secret Life: The Structure and Meaning of UFO Abductions", will be published by Simon and Schuster early in 1992. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 BRUCE S. MACCABEE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Bruce Maccabee was born May 6, 1942 in Rutland, Vermont. He received a B.S. in Physics from Worchester Polytechnique Institute (1964) a M.S. and Ph.D. in Physics from American University in 1967 and 1970, respectively. After serving as a Laser Physics Consultant in private industry, in 1972 he assumed his current position as a Research Physicist at the Naval Surface Weapons Center in Silver Spring, MD. He has worked on optical data processing, underwater sound, high energy lasers and, most recently, on various aspects of the Strategic Defense Initiative (DSI). Bruce was a member of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) from 1968 until its demise. He became a member of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) in 1975 and was subsequently appointed State Director for Maryland and Consultant in Photo Analysis and Laser Physics. In 1979, he and several other Washington, D.C. area UFOlogists established the Fund for UFO Research, of which he is the chairman. Bruce has carried out numerous UFO case investigations, specializing in photographic cases. He is, perhaps, best known for his analysis of the McMinnville, Oregon photo case (May 1950), the New Zealand multiple witness/film/radar sightings (December 1978) and more recently, the Gulf breeze, Florida sightings. he has also done some historical research and was the first person to publish articles on the FBI "flying disc" file which he requested and obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. Dr. Maccabee is the author or coauthor of about three dozen technical articles and about an equal number of UFO related articles. he is listed in "American Men and Women of Science" and in "Who's Who in Technology Today". He has been interviewed by the news media numerous times and has appeared on national TV and radio talk shows, most notably the "Larry King Show", "Good Morning America" and "Night Line". In his spare time, Bruce is active musically as a pianist, having played solo and with bands in the Washington area. Also, he has given several formal concerts in the Washington and Baltimore areas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 JEAN-PIERRE PETIT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professor Jean-Pierre Petit is a specialist in plasma physics and General Relativity Theory. He is a senior researcher at the French Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique and has been a member of the Observatory of Marseille for 15 years. He has published his works in the most prestigious scientific journals of theoretical physics, such as "Modern Physics Letters". He is the recent author of a new book titled "Enquete sur les Ovnis" (Investigating UFOs) published by Albin Michel (1990). Petit explains the reasons why "we cannot exclude the possibility that UFOs are piloted by beings originating elsewhere in the universe." In an interview with Jean-Pierre Petit by Marie-Therese de Brosses, originally published in the August 9, 1990 issue of "Paris match", his theories, scientific conclusions on UFOs, and possible propulsion methods were delineated. This superb interview was translated from the Paris "Match" article by Robert J. Durant and his wife and published in the "MUFON UFO Journal", Number 273, January 1991. A quotation from this interview reflects Professor Petit's philosophy regarding UFOs - "To manufacture such a machine would require that the engine develop an amount of power equivalent to that of a large nuclear power generating plant. And if there is anything not amenable to miniaturization, it is a nuclear plant. Conclusion: the machines seen in Belgium are not of terrestrial origin." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 GENE M. PHILLIPS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gene M. Phillips founded the Ancient Astronaut Society on September 14, 1973, incorporated in Illinois as a non-profit, tax-exempt organization operated exclusively for scientific, literary and educational purposes. The objectives of the Society are to search for evidence to determine whether a highly-developed, technological civilization existed on earth before our recorded history, and to determine whether our planet was visited by intelligent beings from outer space in the remote past. Mr. Phillips was born in Beaver, West Virginia in 1926. He has a Bachelor's degree in Business Administration from Virginia Tech, a MBA degree from Harvard University and a Juris Doctor degree from Northwestern School of Law. He is currently a practicing corporate attorney in Highland Park, Illinois. Since founding the Ancient Astronaut Society, Mr. Phillips has earned a world-wide reputation in the field through extensive reading and research and visiting archaeological sites and museums throughout the world. he has presented many lectures and slide presentations and has appeared on numerous radio and television programs. Mr. Phillips is the President of the Society and the Editor of the English edition of "Ancient Skies". In 1977 and again in 1983, Gene Phillips visited Peru and flew over the Plain of Nazca in a small plane at an altitude of about 500 feet and personally photographed the area. Many of these photos were presented at the 1991 MUFON UFO International Symposium, held in Chicago, Illinois, and are contained in the video tapes from this symposium. Mr. Phillips has accepted the challenge to solve this fantastic mystery just as ufologists have dedicated themselves to resolving the UFO enigma. Through his on-sight investigations and historical study of previously authored books, he has found that the mystery cannot be explained as casually as some authors and investigators have done in the past. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 ZECHARIA SITCHIN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zecharia Sitchin was born in Russia and raised in Palestine, where he acquired a profound knowledge of modern and ancient Hebrew, other Semitic and European languages, the Old testament, and the history of archaeology of the Near East. He attended the London School of Economics and Political Science, and graduated from the University of London, majoring in economic history. A leading journalist and editor in Israel for many years, he now lives and writes in New York. he is a member of the Israel Exploration Society, the American Oriental Society, and the Middle East Studies Association of North America. His four books in "The Earth Chronicles" series have been published and re-published in both hardcover and paperback editions and widely translated into many languages, including German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, Swedish and Japanese. The scientific advances since the publication of the first book, "The 12th Planet", in 1976 have confirmed many of the innovative and pioneering theories and conclusions of Sitchin's books, attesting to the accuracy of Sumerian knowledge 6,000 years ago. His first book was followed in 1980 by "The Stairway To Heaven" and in 1985 by "The War Of Gods And Men"; book IV of the series titled "The Last Realms" (1990), encompasses the ancient events and civilizations of the Americas. Sitchin's latest book, "Genesis Revisited", was published October 1990 by Avon in paperback and in January 1991 by Bear and Co. in hardcover. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 DENNIS STACY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dennis Stacy was born in 1946 and graduated from the University of Texas at Austin in 1970 with a Bachelor of Arts Degree in English. Widely traveled, for the past decade he has been a free-lance writer based in San Antonio. Stacy's articles, interviews and pictures have appeared in a wide variety of magazines, newspapers and anthologies both in this country and abroad, including "New Scientist", Smithsonian "Air & Space", "Omni", the "New Age Journal", "southwest Spirit" and "Fortean Times", among others. He is the author of two unproduced screenplays and served as a consultant on two segments produced for NBC-TV's "Unsolved Mysteries" program. He currently edits the "MUFON UFO Journal" and reviews computer hard and software products for two popular industry publications while continuing his outside writing career. Stacy has contributed chapters to at least three UFO compilations, including "Phenomenon, UFOs 1947-1987" and the just-published "UFOs: The Definitive Casebook". With Michael Chorost, and as director of the Complete Circle Project, he is at work compiling a comprehensive bibliography of Crop Circle and related writings, and welcomes any and all contributions. beginning this year, his column, "Science Watch", will appear regularly in "Fortean Times". His self - published papers include "The Marfa Lights: A Viewer's Guide" and the "Crop Circles Bibliography" compiled by Michael Chorost. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHO'S - WHO IN UFOLOGY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (c) MUFON 1991 MICHAEL D. SWORDS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael D. Swords is a Professor of Natural Science at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1962 with a B.S. degree in Chemistry, and also holds an M.S. degree from Iowa State University in Biochemistry (1965), and a Ph.D. from Case Western Reserve university (1972). His major professional and involvements are teaching and writing in the areas of general sciences and anomalous phenomena. His teaching centers about human biology, the history and philosophy of science, scientific methodology, and the "parasciences" of which UFOlogy is a member. His writings have concentrated mainly on topics in UFOlogy, parapsychology, and cryptozoology, and several have been published in the "MUFON UFO Journal". He has won University's Teaching Excellence Award (1978). Dr. Swords is a member of several professional and parascientific societies including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Association of University Professors, the Society for Scientific Exploration, and the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON). He serves as a MUFON consultant and was in the same capacity for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, the International Fortean Organization, and as a member of the advisor panel for the Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained. he is a Board member of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, and is the editor of UFOlogy's academic journal: "The Journal of UFO Studies". Dr. Swords originally spoke at the MUFON 1986 UFO Symposium in East Lansing, Michigan. He has recently presented materials at the "Abductions" Conferences of TREAT II (VPI, 1990) and NCAE (Temple, 1991), as well as the National Science Teachers Association (Phoenix, 1989). =END= Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john From: john@anasaz (John Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz> Date: 17 Nov 91 22:25:34 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 38 Keywords: In article <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: ]>]Wait a second! Now perhaps my arithmetic is bad, but if the odds of my ]>]getting killed by an asteroid (spread over my whole lifetime) are ]>]1 in 10,000, then wouldn't we not expect that for similar lifetimes of ]>]every 10,000 people, that about one of them is getting killed by an asteroid? ]>]So with a planet of a population of approx. 5,000,000,000 (5 billion), we ]>]would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths! ]> ]>Yes, if the deaths were independent events. However, since an asteroid ]>strike would likely kill many millions to billions, the deaths are not ]>independent. ie... your math is bad. ]> ] ] ]Uh oh! Seems my math is bad! Honestly, I don't understand how you can ]come up with an answer of 1 in 10000 as odds of getting killed by an ]asteroid during my lifetime. To me, those look really really high. I'd ]more likely believe an answer like one in a million, or billion, or ]what have you. The only way I can accept that answer of 1 in 10000 is if ]you assume an asteroid DOES hit - was this the original assumption this ]answer is based on? I didn't come up with it... the astronomers did. However, here is a way to look at it... Assume an asteroid hits every 20,000 years with disastrous effects. What are the odds that it will hit in your lifetime? I wish I could go back and look at the article, but I can't. By thy way, the astronomer's number might be one in 25000 or one in 50000, but the number I remember is one in 10,000. -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sa2y+ From: sa2y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Anselmo Aiello) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.angst,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 18 Nov 91 11:40:22 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 1 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3686 alt.angst:2557 alt.alien.visitors:3166 In-Reply-To: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> enough about the fictional asteroid please. thank you. Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill From: bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <10305@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 12:45:54 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> <91318.212942UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Sender: news@uofs.uofs.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3167 alt.paranormal:3687 Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu In article <91318.212942UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU writes: |> |> What kind of trade agreements. What could we have that they would want |> or need. |> Did you ever see an episode of a well known old TV show with the title: "How to serve man" "I'll have a large Iowan to go please. And hold the ketchup." -- Bill Gunshannon | If this statement wasn't here, bill@platypus.uofs.edu | This space would be left intentionally blank bill@tuatara.uofs.edu | #include Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!danwell From: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: The Shroud and HOLIER THAN THOU vagueness. Message-ID: <1991Nov18.074446@IASTATE.EDU> Date: 18 Nov 91 13:44:46 GMT References: <1991Oct24.011754.13568@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct26.051403.18319@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov10.235155.7102@disk.uucp> <31953@gdc.com> Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 46 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17763 talk.religion.newage:7714 alt.atheism:18055 alt.alien.visitors:3168 In article <31953@gdc.com>, foster@gdc.com (Sharon Foster) writes: >>[someone else writes:] >> A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up -- >> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin >> was a >> hoax. > > > Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about > as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to > scientific ideas. > > Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth. > I must object on several points. The age of the Shroud of Turin is a matter of verifiable fact and hence not solely theological. Second, many theological ideas such as the literal truth of the biblical fllod fell to bits under the application of "scientific thinking". My strongest objection is that your final sentence seems to imply that you think all Christians are fanatics? The person you quote thinks fanatics should shut up, not all Christians. In addition you seem to think the Shroud of Turin, a clear forgery, is nevertheless a legitamate relic? Clearly I'm putting the meanest possible interpretation on everything you said, which leads to my final objection; the above leaves your actual position vague and blurry: please clarify it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A Thought on the Shroud I was watching one of Iowa State Universities "for credit" telecourses while doing some grading last month. It was on the archetecture of medieval churches. One point they made in the program was that the income of both a church and the surrounding town were wildly dependent of the type and quality of relics the church posessed. Good relics would bring in pilgrims (money) from all over Europe. Think, then, for a moment, of the benifit to the local economy of having the burial shroud of Jesus Christ (himself!). I mention this because I have seen in this forum that the putative forgers of the shroud have means and opportunity. I thought it would be nice to include motive. Dan Danwell@IASTATE.EDU Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bio file of some UFO researchers Message-ID: <1991Nov18.141603.10417@convex.com> Date: 18 Nov 91 14:16:03 GMT References: <1991Nov17.191827.103@bilver.uucp> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 7 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com What, no entry for Jacques Vallee? -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!arh From: arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 15:21:59 GMT References: <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> Sender: usenet@wam.umd.edu (USENET News system) Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Lines: 83 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17767 alt.paranormal:3688 alt.alien.visitors:3170 talk.religion.newage:7715 Nntp-Posting-Host: wam.umd.edu From: Truyen C. Lam Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500 To: arvand >From LAICHO@UMDD.UMD.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991 Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu >I received this letter on e-mail. I donot know how and why I was the >selected lucky one. But if any body knows anything about these things >to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what >the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info. Dear everybody: With Love, All Things Are Possible This paper has been sent to you for good luck. The original came from New England. It has been around the world nine times. The luck has now been sent to you. You will receive good luck within four days of receiving this letter - provided you in turn send it out. This is no joke. You will recieve good luck in the mail. SEND NO MONEY. Send copies to people you think need good luck. Don't send money, as fate has no price. Do not keep this letter. It must leave your hands within 96 hours. An AAF Officer received $470,000.00. Lee Elliot received $40,000.00 and lost it because he broke the chain. While in the Philippines, Gene Welch lost his wife 51 days after receiving the letter. He failed to circulate the letter. However, before her death he received $7,750,000.00 Please send twenty copies and see what happens in four days. The chain comes from Venezuela and was written by St. Anthony DeGread, a missionary from South America. Since the copy must tour the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to friends and associates. After a few days you will get a surprise -- this is true! -- even if you are not superstitious. Do not do the following: Constantine Dias received the chain in 1953. He asked his secretary to make twenty copies and send them out. A few days later she won the lottery of two million dollars. Coral Daddit, an office employee, received the letter and forgot it had to leave his hands in 96 hours. He lost his job. Later, after finding the letter again, he mailed twenty copies. A few days later, he got a better job. Dalan Fairchild received the letter and not believing, threw the letter away, nine days later, he died. In 1987, the letter was received by a young woman in California. It was very faded and barely readable. She promised herself that she would retype the letter and send it on, but she put it aside to do later. She was plagued with various problems, including expensive car repairs. The letter did not leave her hands for 96 hours. She finally typed the letter as promised and mailed them out. She got a new car. Remember, send no money. Do not ignore this letter! St. Jude Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!mnetor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <1991Nov16.183633.22392@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Date: 16 Nov 91 23:28:16 GMT References: <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov10.235155.7102@disk.uucp> <31953@gdc.com> Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17772 talk.religion.newage:7716 alt.atheism:18066 alt.alien.visitors:3171 In article <31953@gdc.com> foster@gdc.com (Sharon Foster) writes: >> >> A possible example of when the religious fanatics should shut up -- >> when scientists proved by atomic dating methods that the Shroud of Turin was a >> hoax. > > >Applying scientific thinking to theological ideas is about >as useful, and valid, as applying theological thinking to >scientific ideas. > >Being a Christian does not depend on the age of a piece of cloth. > But science can PROVE that the cloth dates from the medievil ages not roman times so I do not understand how you can back this up. Science can talk about ANYTHING that can be quantified. Whether or not this universe was created by an intelligent being is a quantitative real event so science can indicate its likelihood. The only place science can not go is the experience of human feelings, the qualitative aspects. ALEX BUNKER >-- >Sharon "Just Another Bleeding-Heart Liberal" Foster > >/* Sharon Foster....First Generation Trekkie * foster@gdc.com */ >/* These are my own Biased Personal Opinions (tm). */ >/* "Jesus asked us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the */ >/* homeless; he didn't mention anything about asking them for a financial */ >/* statement." - me */ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!newserve!bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu!kym From: kym@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov18.170157.4584@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 17:01:57 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: usenet@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu (Mr News) Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17773 alt.paranormal:3689 alt.alien.visitors:3172 talk.religion.newage:7717 Nntp-Posting-Host: bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu In article <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) writes: >From: Truyen C. Lam >Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500 >To: arvand > >>From LAICHO@UMDD.UMD.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991 >Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu > >>I received this letter on e-mail. I donot know how and why I was the >>selected lucky one. But if any body knows anything about these things >>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what >>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info. [some chain letter or other deleted] This sort of stuff regularly does the rounds. Being filled with what I would consider superstitious rubbish it has not point that I know of. I'm not sure I've seen this _particular_ letter before but the classic ``carrot and big stick'' seems familiar. I have noticed at this college the ``selected lucky people'' are foreign students (I thought I had a nice foreign name but I've never received such a ``nice'' letter ;-) )? Perhaps watch out for people who will shortly approach you telling you you've got a shot at winning a million dollars. ;-) -kym Path: ns-mx!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante From: grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> Date: 18 Nov 91 17:17:56 GMT References: Sender: news@rosevax.rosemount.com (USENET News administrator) Organization: Rosemount, Inc. Lines: 38 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17774 alt.alien.visitors:3173 Originator: grante@aquarius Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering): > > As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer) [stuff about how easy it is for a trained person to mistake a planet for something else] > > "trained engineer." You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have one question: How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an engineer??? Computer scicence is not an engineering field. It's much closer to math than engineering. I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate and graduate computer science courses at three different universities and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with engineering. Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even make you an engineer. Engineering is a professional not an academic field. Check the job titles of the people in the university engineering departments, you won't find any engineers, just TAs, instructors, and professors. I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer. -- Grant Edwards |Yow! Was my SOY LOAF left out Rosemount Inc. |in th'RAIN? It tastes REAL |GOOD!! grante@aquarius.rosemount.com | Path: ns-mx!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!w254zrz!hakiaahb From: hakiaahb@w254zrztu-berlin.de (Hakan Kayal) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1764@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> Date: 18 Nov 91 17:39:40 GMT References: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz> Sender: news@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de Lines: 11 Some month's ago I had read somewhere (I think it was "Der Spiegel" a serios political magazine in Germany) about a large meteorid which has missed to hit Earth whith a difference of about five minutes in it's trajectory. It was claimed that after that, it was recommened by some physicians to establish an improved observing system for meteorids encountering Earth's trajectoy. I think it is important. There is indeath no guarantee for a case of collision. It MIGHT be usefull to now of something like that some months ago. Hakan Kayal Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Thermonuclear Explosives (was Scientists Think) Message-ID: <1991Nov18.200412.16581@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 20:04:12 GMT References: <1991Oct28.183128.5349@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17776 alt.paranormal:3690 alt.alien.visitors:3175 talk.religion.newage:7718 In article <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) writes: >In article <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: > >> Hmmm. India clearly can make fission weapons, but as far as I >>know, they have not exploded a fusion device. In the absense of such >>a fusion bomb test, how can Inda have killed people with them? Ditto >>for covert members of the nuclear club, like Israel and South >>Africa. > >Whoops, I was wrong in making the assumption that a country that >develops fission weapons, would naturally go onto developing >fusion weapons as well. Which countries have developed fusion >weapons, aside from the US and the USSR? Sometimes nations which have had a hand in developing fission weapons don't even go on to make fission weapons for themselves (Canada comes to mind). The Official Members of the Thermonuclear club are the USA, the USSR (Dunno who gets the bombs in the event of the USSR disintegrating, but judging from where the Strategic Rocket forces are being relocated to, non-Russians need not apply, even though they paid for them), the UK, France and China. Unofficial members may include Israel and South Africa. Nations which have detonated fission explosives without officially going on to build thermonuclear weapons seem to limited to a count of one: India. I am unaware of evidence that India has or intends to build their own H-bombs, despite having a neighbor with whom hostilities are fairly frequent, who *is* armed with thermonuclear weapons. >The deaths I was refering to would have been from directly >nuclear related effects, either from manufacture or detonation. James Nicoll Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 18 Nov 91 21:08:51 GMT References: <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17778 alt.alien.visitors:3176 In article <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes: > >You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have >one question: > >How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an >engineer??? > > [...] > >I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the >courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer. Sorry if I stepped on a professional toe or two there. In my defense, I could say I spent 4 years being called a "software engineer" by my old company, and the University of Michigan says I'm enrolled in the School of Engineering. I'll be the first to admit that "Computer Science and Engineering" doesn't actually have much to do with science OR engineering in the traditional sense. Anyway, I think the point I was trying to make was that having some sort of technical education doesn't necessarily make a person a "trained observer". Many reports of UFO sightings (such as Jimmy Carter's) are given added importance because the UFOs were seen by a genuine nuclear engineer (in Carter's case), an "experienced airline pilot", or whatever. While I don't know for sure, I suspect I'm at least as "qualified" to observe things in the sky as Jimmy Carter. If I could be fooled into thinking an airplane was Venus, I see no reason why Carter couldn't have been fooled into thinking Venus was some sort of unknown phenomenon. Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Tornado/'The purpose of our Earth"/(sigh) Stollman, again... Message-ID: <1991Nov18.172131.24162@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 18 Nov 91 22:35:08 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 17 In article <32793@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>, traveler@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU writes... > >Anyone know any more about this topic? I'm serious; I don't >want you to tell me about how your friends from the Pleiades >or Venus are doing it. >-------------------------------------------------------- They have been reported in the U.S., Max .... and in Japan and Australia and numerous other countries. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov18.172442.24276@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 18 Nov 91 22:35:21 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 14 In article <91318.171127DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) writes... >Do you mean that it was built by the Japanese? Guess so :-) ... who else could do it? Well, the Russians maybe... they're pretty good at putting up space stations, I guess. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 22:09:40 GMT References: <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3692 alt.alien.visitors:3179 talk.religion.newage:7720 sci.skeptic:17779 In-Reply-To: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of network priviledges, action by the system administators of your site/network connection including termination of your account/access, or disciplinary action if you are at a university, up to and including explusion, and possible legal prosecution. It also wastes limited network resources and annoys countless people, numbering up to the thousands, so *DON'T DO IT!* Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!gritz From: gritz@seas.gwu.edu (Larry Gritz) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov18.233104.12667@seas.gwu.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 23:31:04 GMT References: <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@seas.gwu.edu Organization: US Naval Observatory, Washington DC Lines: 59 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17781 alt.alien.visitors:3180 In article <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: >Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be >called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer >could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances >except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind. Um, I beg to differ. I have noticed that surprisingly few people (including engineers and other assorted techies) are experienced at observing astronomical phenomena. I think it quite possible that J.C. could simply not realize how very bright Venus can appear, and therefore assumed that it was not an astronomical object. Also, I don't know what the geographic or atmospheric details were for the sighting, but it also wouldn't surprise me if J.C. underestimated the amount of movement, flickering, and color change that turbulent atmosphere can cause on objects close to the horizon. >You >are correct in pointing out that for a given subtended angle one does not know >the distance to an object. But I'm sure that what J.C. and his friends >saw had a measurable subtended angle (measurable by eye), and this is what >caused J.C. to take notice. > >If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it >(using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a >planet Are you implying that planets do not subtend an angle? My Astronomical Almanac says that Venus subtends a maximum angle, from our point of view, of 58 seconds of arc. This is about 1/30 the diameter of the full moon. I think this is quite noticeable. I did some back of the envelope calculations: If you have a 19" video monitor with 1280x1024 resolution and you can tell the difference between a period and a comma on the screen when standing about 8 feet away, then you are capable of differentiating a 1 minute subtended angle from a point source. (I can tell the difference.) There is also a well-known and overdiscussed optical illusion in which the subtended angle of a distant object appears larger when it is close to the horizon (I believe this was part of J.C.'s description). >| Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | > ... >"If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average >coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, >nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. I like that quote. Later, -- lg -- Larry Gritz lg@galileo.usno.navy.mil US Naval Observatory phone: 202-653-1034 Washington, DC 20392-5100 also: gritz@seas.gwu.edu -- Larry Gritz lg@galileo.usno.navy.mil US Naval Observatory phone: 202-653-1034 Washington, DC 20392-5100 also: gritz@seas.gwu.edu Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!uflorida!sol!snively From: snively.bbs@shark.cse.fau.edu Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: Date: 18 Nov 91 23:39:09 GMT References: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: news@shark.uucp Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17783 alt.paranormal:3693 alt.alien.visitors:3181 talk.religion.newage:7723 Originator: @shark.cse.fau.edu arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) writes: > >I received this letter on e-mail. I donot know how and why I was the > >selected lucky one. But if any body knows anything about these things > >to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what > >the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info. This is very funny. I sent this "chain letter" to 20 people (as requested), but hand delivered, not by email. I didn't think of e-mailing people with chain letters. I would hate it, so I won't do it. Steve - "You think that's funny?" --- InterNet: snively.bbs@shark.cse.fau.edu Steve Snively: SysOp of "Time Enough For Love BBS" +1 (215) 449-1902 "Jesus saves, passes| Don't even think that | I'm the only kid in to Moses, he shoots| I'm Christian; Call me | high school that knows HE SCORES!!!" | a Yogi | what a trackstand is. Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.gwu.edu!gritz From: gritz@seas.gwu.edu (Larry Gritz) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov18.234151.12864@seas.gwu.edu> Date: 18 Nov 91 23:41:51 GMT References: <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> Sender: news@seas.gwu.edu Organization: US Naval Observatory Lines: 58 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17785 alt.alien.visitors:3182 In article <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes: >ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering): >> >> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer) >> "trained engineer." > >You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have >one question: > >How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an >engineer??? > >Computer scicence is not an engineering field. It's much closer to >math than engineering. I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate >and graduate computer science courses at three different universities >and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with >engineering. Depends on where you study. When I was an undergrad at Cornell University, the CS department was split between the school of engineering and the school of arts and sciences. Which school you were in determined, in part, your course of study. The people in the arts school duplicated much of the math curriculum, as you said. But the people in the engineering school had a curriculum much closer to those in EE. I was a double major most of the way through, and when I graduated with my BS in CS (concentration in EE), I had completed nearly all the requirements for a BS in EE as well. >Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even >make you an engineer. Engineering is a professional not an academic >field. This is a matter of opinion. I think I tend to agree, but not everybody does. >I don't walk around claiming to be a scientist, so please do me the >courtesy of not claiming to be an engineer. A bit high strung, aren't we? Anyway, the point is moot. The original point was whether a "trained engineer" was a good observer of astronomical phenomena. I think that a CS education (or work experience) gives one exactly the same preparation (or lack thereof) for observing Venus as an education in Mech. E., for example. -- Larry Gritz -- Larry Gritz lg@galileo.usno.navy.mil US Naval Observatory phone: 202-653-1034 Washington, DC 20392-5100 also: gritz@seas.gwu.edu -- Larry Gritz lg@galileo.usno.navy.mil US Naval Observatory phone: 202-653-1034 Washington, DC 20392-5100 also: gritz@seas.gwu.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov19.021643.11896@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 02:16:43 GMT References: <9=j_BA-@engin.umich.edu> <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 26 In-Reply-To: noring@netcom.COM's message of Fri, 15 Nov 91 23:21:53 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM writes: > > If a person reports a UFO, and they can give some idea of the size of it > (using, for example, the arm's length test), then what they saw cannot be a > planet (unless it can be shown that the person has one of the afflictions > mentioned above). IMHO, the Venus explanation for UFO's has been overused > and misused by the so-called "experts", making me come to the conclusion > that these "experts" are either not very expert, or that they have a hidden > agenda or motivation for using this explanation. That may be your opinion but it does not change the fact that Venus *is* the single most commonly reported "UFO". You'll find that fact listed in "The UFO Handbook" as a warning to people who are investigating and reporting UFO sightings. Years ago I met Frank Salsbury who wrote "UFOs of Northern Utah" (or something along those lines. It was posted by Don Allen in his list of required readings). He believes that UFOs are some kind of legitimate unknown phenomenon and has done a good deal of serious investigation. He told me about an incident in which a number of people saw a bright object hanging over the western horizon. They all agreed that it couldn't have been a celestial object because it was not a point of light, but had visible dimensions. One said that it was shaped like a fish. Another said that it had a bundle of machinery dangling from a cable. All agreed that it had flashing lights and did not stand in one place. Professor Salsbury went out to look for it with one of the witnesses on the following night. And guess what? It turned out to be Venus, just a bright point of light near the horizon. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!cebarton From: cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (Casey Barton) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov19.020908.21385@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 02:09:08 GMT References: <1991Nov17.222534.21210@anasaz> <1764@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 19 In article <1764@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de> in.de (Hakan Kayal) writes: >Some month's ago I had read somewhere (I think it was "Der Spiegel" a >serios political magazine in Germany) about a large meteorid which has >missed to hit Earth whith a difference of about five minutes in it's >trajectory. It was claimed that after that, it was recommened by some >physicians to establish an improved observing system for meteorids encountering >Earth's trajectoy. > >I think it is important. There is indeath no guarantee for a case of collision. >It MIGHT be usefull to now of something like that some months ago. Why would this be useful? "Uh-Oh...A meteor's going to hit! Everybody off!" -- Casey Barton (Mr.) cebarton@descartes.waterloo.edu (519)725-6861 "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen..." - The Guide. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 19 Nov 91 02:23:28 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 6 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3695 alt.alien.visitors:3185 alt.angst:2561 In-Reply-To: Excerpts from alt.angst (USENET): 18-Nov-91 Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Steven A. Aiello@andrew.cmu.edu (57) > enough about the fictional asteroid please. thank you. How are you so sure that it is fictional? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <13367@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 18 Nov 91 15:00:23 GMT References: Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17794 alt.alien.visitors:3186 pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in > office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody > provide any references? I always thought it would be cool to get elected President of the USofA and then call a big cabinet meeting and say "Okay everybody, no BS, I wanna know what the real deal is with UFO's" and they *have* to tell you 'cause you're the Prez :-) Craig -- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- THEY LIVE Internet: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- WE SLEEP Austin: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com -- -- VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!dmcanzi From: dmcanzi@watserv1.waterloo.edu (David Canzi) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 03:32:23 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Organization: Effete Corps of Impudent Snobs Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17795 alt.paranormal:3696 alt.alien.visitors:3187 talk.religion.newage:7728 I received (via E-mail) a copy of this letter too. The forwarding headers attached were several times the length of the letter itself. The list of people who forwarded the letter consisted mostly of people at universities (including Harvard, MIT) and a minority from high-tech companies (including BNR). In paragraph 1, the chain letter says: >The original came from New England. In paragraph 4, >The chain comes from Venezuela ... How does the letter come to have a description of what happened to those who received it and either chose to pass it along, or not to pass it along? The letter describes the good luck people have received as a result of passing along to letter, making it clear that the unit of measurement for good luck is the dollar, and then informs us that the chain was originated by St. Anthony DeGread. ----- It looks to me like the letter originated as a practical joke. -- David Canzi Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!ucsd!nmt.edu!news From: david@baervan.nmt.edu (David Fritchman) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Communications prize Message-ID: <1991Nov19.015410.4902@nmt.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 01:54:10 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Petroleum Recovery Research Center, NMIMT Lines: 7 In Margaret Cheney's book _Tesla: Man Out of Time_, she quotes Tesla as saying "I am expecting to put before the Institute of France an accurate description of the devices with data and calculations and claim the Pierre Guzman Prize of 100,000 francs for means of communication with other worlds, feeling perfectly sure that it will be awarded to me." Any info on it? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 07:43:08 GMT References: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@unix.cis.pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17798 alt.paranormal:3697 alt.alien.visitors:3189 "It" is a chain letter. It is also a very OLD chain letter. I have recieved the IDENTICAL letter four times in the past five years. And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to whoever is in charge... Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!chalmers.se!dtek.chalmers.se!d9bertil From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <6950@chalmers.se> Date: 19 Nov 91 07:52:15 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: news@chalmers.se Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17799 alt.paranormal:3698 alt.alien.visitors:3190 talk.religion.newage:7731 In article <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) writes: >Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Yeah, and it's prohibited on the USENET. -bertil- -- "It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an exercise for your kill-file." Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans From: degnans@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Santa Claus) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: X the bodydigger comes of age Summary: get him! Keywords: old birthday cake cheese Message-ID: <1991Nov19.131448.28298@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> Date: 19 Nov 91 13:14:48 GMT Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept. Lines: 29 I've got through at last! Now to warn you - X THE BODYDIGGER REACHES FULL MATURITY THIS COMING SATURDAY! You have had warning. To save the planet from his new powers you must do the following: Sometime between now and Friday morning mail: irelanda@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs with the following message: 'Happy birthday, chunky' It isn't the ultimate solution, but it will postpone the inevitable for a while. Santa. Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction Message-ID: <1991Nov19.094307.4034@bilver.uucp> Date: 19 Nov 91 09:43:07 GMT References: <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> <2595@tuegate.tue.nl> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 75 In article <2595@tuegate.tue.nl> gtoal@stack.urc.tue.nl writes: >In article <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >... Intro to posting... > >Don - You've got your own damn newsgroup for this stuff now; do you >*still* need to crosspost to alt.conspiracy? It would have been quite >suffient to have posted only the into article, with a pointer to >alt.alien.visitors for people who wanted to read more. > >Regards >Graham I cross-post to: alt.alien.visitors alt.conspiracy sci.skeptic The first group is obvious The second group is because contrary to your limited mindset of reality, UFO's are a CONSPIRACY topic of discussion. There are many allegations involving our wonderful military-industrial complex,MJ-12 with coverup activities involving so-called pacts with aliens at Roswell,Area 51,Dulce,etc. These are questions that would suggest conspiracy of the highest sorts with the "secret Govt" and ET's.. This topic _properly_ deserves to be cross-posted to this newsgroup and will continue to be so. How can one ask questions about the Illuminati, Bo Gritz story,BCCI S&L loan failure, AIDS coverup and not see that these things may be related, even in the very TOP part of "who is the secret govt". Answer the question about "who is in control", "who are the members of the Illuminati" and you have a connection to who MJ-12 is and what their function might be. I suggest that if you do not wish to have your sensibilities offended that you either kill file the articles or do some serious reading. One wonders what you will do when the economy is finally dashed to the ground by the secret govt (it's almost there) and your dollar is rendered worthless and the Tri-Lats come out with a "rescue" plan of a global credit system. You will be the first to get marked. Star wars? SDI...you fell for it..it's a LIE. The Beast in Brussels knows all about you. Can you say 0110 0110 0110? This is your wakeup call pal...hear it well..many won't. When the paper currency falls is the emminent return of Nemesis. Then where will you run to? GAIA? I may be pulling your leg here...but then again I may not...UFOlogists aren't into conspiracy theories,right? Don kkkdddd -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!cmcl2!panix!gcf From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.113826.1881@panix.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 11:38:26 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Organization: mydog in exile Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17807 alt.paranormal:3700 alt.alien.visitors:3193 talk.religion.newage:7733 You can accomplish the dictate of this letter by making twenty copies on a Xerox machine, and placing them under a rock near the monkey house at the zoo. However, because you also made thousands of copies of the letter by posting it on Usenet, you will receive billions and billions of dollars and be buried under a mountain of cash so large it will probably kill you. Too bad. -- * Gordon Fitch | gcf@panix.uucp | uunet!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf * Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans From: degnans@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Santa Claus) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: ammendum to X the bodydigger Summary: wrong date Keywords: sorry 30th Message-ID: <1991Nov19.153833.6892@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> Date: 19 Nov 91 15:38:33 GMT Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept. Lines: 10 Due to an unprovoked time shift, X will now come of age on November 30th. Please postpone mail until that period. Thanking you in advance, Santa. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson From: wilson@blaze.cs.jhu.edu (Dwight Wilson) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov19.155827.1433@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 15:58:27 GMT References: <1991Nov15.222928.3751@beta.lanl.gov> <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov18.233104.12667@seas.gwu.edu> Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17808 alt.alien.visitors:3195 In article <1991Nov18.233104.12667@seas.gwu.edu> gritz@seas.gwu.edu (Larry Gritz) writes: >In article <1991Nov15.232153.5078noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: >>Most engineers have enough knowledge of the physical sciences to be >>called "trained observers", and I don't believe that one engineer >>could be fooled into believing that Venus is a UFO under any circumstances >>except that they are drunk or drugged or insane or legally blind. > >Um, I beg to differ. I have noticed that surprisingly few people (including >engineers and other assorted techies) are experienced at observing >astronomical phenomena. I think it quite possible that J.C. could simply >not realize how very bright Venus can appear, and therefore assumed that >it was not an astronomical object. Also, I don't know what the geographic >or atmospheric details were for the sighting, but it also wouldn't surprise >me if J.C. underestimated the amount of movement, flickering, and color >change that turbulent atmosphere can cause on objects close to the >horizon. > I'd be interested in knowing what Carter's reaction to the explanation was. Did he readily accept that what he saw was Venus, or did he say that that couldn't be the correct explanation? Of course the correctness of the explanation isn't affected by whether or not he believes it, but it would be very amusing (and not too unlikely) if he (the first hand observer) is satisfied with the explanation and we're still fighting over it. -Dwight Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson From: wilson@blaze.cs.jhu.edu (Dwight Wilson) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.161023.1598@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 16:10:23 GMT References: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17811 alt.paranormal:3701 alt.alien.visitors:3196 In article <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: > > "It" is a chain letter. It is also a very OLD chain letter. I >have recieved the IDENTICAL letter four times in the past five years. > > And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over >the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to >whoever is in charge... > I'm skeptical about this last claim (:-)). I thought chain letters were only illegal through US Snail if they solicited money. Anyone know for sure? -Dwight Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!ultb!ritvax.isc.rit.edu!EBP4907 From: ebp4907@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Erica Palmer) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.173737.26240@isc.rit.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 17:37:37 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu>,<1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@isc.rit.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: ebp4907@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17818 alt.paranormal:3703 alt.alien.visitors:3197 talk.religion.newage:7740 Nntp-Posting-Host: vaxe.isc.rit.edu The last time I received a chain letter was last year; I got 2 copies, and threw both of them out. A week later I was offered a full tuition scholarship. So much for bad luck. :) _______________________________ Erica B. Palmer | "My GPA has fallen and it | Rochester Institute of Technology (student) | can't get up! | EBP4907@ritvax.isc.rit.edu | | |_______________________________| Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cwatters From: cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Summary: December 5 Message-ID: <1991Nov19.183625.5988@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 18:36:25 GMT Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 13 Nntp-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu While I was watching the morning news, our local NBC affiliate's (WCMH) weatherman made an announcement about a near miss asteroid or cometary fragment (he wan't sure which) which was supposed to occur around December 5th. It is supposed to pass within 250k miles (close). Anyone out there have more info on this? -- ..and the silicon heart warmed to the sight/ of a billion candles burning/ now I'm not saying that the battle is won/but on Saturday night all the kids in the sun/ embrace the technology sown from the hands of the warlords... "The Tide Is Turning" - Roger Waters - _The Wall Live in Berlin 1990_ Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!ptsys1!beb From: beb@ptsys1.pt.com (Bruce E. Buck) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <1991Nov15.142946.27668@ptsys1.pt.com> Date: 15 Nov 91 14:29:46 GMT References: Organization: Performance Technologies, Incorporated Lines: 14 In article bbs.gary@jwt.UUCP (Gary Stollman) writes: >This is probably the most frightening thing you will ever read...I am >afraid that it may cause considerable consternation and confusion or who >knows what, maybe just some good laughs around the world...I am the >person who jumped onto the live set of KNBC in Los Angeles in 1987 and >held a toy gun to the head of David Horowitz, the consumer advocate...I >know it made the national and even the International news...I forced him >to read a statement about how the CIA and Aliens had cloned my family and >friends, among various other things...It was dismissed as the possible >rantings of a loonie, by some... etc. Sounds to me like your basic paranoid schizophrenic. Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov19.195255.2120@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 20:13:07 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 32 In article <1713@gtx.com>, al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) writes... >In article <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: >#>In article kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) writes: >#> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >#>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? ># >#Well, a friend of mine says it isn't supposed to destroy the Earth at all. >#It's supposed to orbit the Earth. It's an orbiting Master Space Station >#and it's purpose is to facilitate first contact with us and initiate trade >#agreements. ># ># Mary Stanley > >Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA ) > ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course it's a joke, ... silly :-) --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov19.195638.2278@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 20:13:19 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3201 alt.paranormal:3704 In article <91318.212942UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, writes... > >What kind of trade agreements. What could we have that they would want >or need. Or are they considering franchising McDonalds into space? > >I'll have a Moon-Mac, a large order of laser-fries, and a Venusian shake >to go. And make it quick...I was supposed to be in the Orion sector a >half an hour ago. They want access to Grateful Dead concerts and copies of bootleg tapes to take back to Orion. mary :-) --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!morrow.stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan From: amorgan@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.201818.2529@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> Date: 19 Nov 91 20:18:18 GMT References: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov19.173737.26240@isc.rit.edu> Sender: news@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17824 alt.paranormal:3706 alt.alien.visitors:3202 talk.religion.newage:7745 In article <1991Nov19.173737.26240@isc.rit.edu> ebp4907@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes: >The last time I received a chain letter was last year; I got 2 copies, >and threw both of them out. A week later I was offered a full tuition >scholarship. So much for bad luck. :) > But if you *had* sent it on you would have won the lottery and discovered a cure for cancer and won a Nobel Peace Prize. I hope you have learned your lesson >Erica B. Palmer | "My GPA has fallen and it | >Rochester Institute of Technology (student) | can't get up! | >EBP4907@ritvax.isc.rit.edu | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions above are not mine. I stole them all from the person sitting next to me. If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Watch out! This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Summary: details at 11 Message-ID: <6079@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 20:24:58 GMT References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 36 twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: >>In article <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com >(Steve Timpson) writes: >>Not true. The odds of being killed by an asteroid during your lifetime >>is about one in 10,000 according to some astronomers who have been >>studying asteroid strikes on earth. >> >>The good news is that 1 in 10000 is pretty small odds when spread over >>a lifetime. Well, yeah, looking at the chance for a given instance, the odds are really small; but on the other hand, all you need is a lifetime.... Duck and cover! > [... math to show that ...] >we would expect there would be up to 500,000 asteroid-related deaths! Wow. You(meaning everybody reading this) should call everybody you love and tell them so, because one (or more) of the 500,000 to get nuked (sorry for the callousness) may be those you love. "Hello, Mom? I love you. I'm calling to tell you that because you might be one of half a million to get killed by an Earthbound asteroid. Tell Dad hi." >BTW - sometime back on alt.alien.visitors there was a thread about a person >who was actually struck by a meteorite, anybody remember the details? Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off. If it hit a limb, it might have just caused a large flesh wound. Any asteroid victims alive out there, wanting to tell us their story? -Brent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!john From: john@anasaz (John Moore) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz> Date: 19 Nov 91 14:28:57 GMT Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, AZ, USA Lines: 51 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17827 alt.alien.visitors:3204 Keywords: In article <1991Nov18.171756.9610@rosevax.rosemount.com> grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) writes: ]ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering): ]> ]> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer) ] ][stuff about how easy it is for a trained person to mistake a planet ]for something else] ] ]> ]> "trained engineer." ] ]You are probably correct about venus and airplanes and such but I have ]one question: ] ]How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an ]engineer??? ] ]Computer scicence is not an engineering field. It's much closer to ]math than engineering. I've taken 50 or 60 credits of undergraduate ]and graduate computer science courses at three different universities ]and even the ones called "Software Engineering" had nothing to do with ]engineering. I strongly beg to differ with you. One who practices computer science is practicing engineering. I have done electrical engineering, and I have done software engineering. They are very similar disciplines: -they are based on mathematical theory, but that theory is usually somewhat incomplete in its practical predictive powers -they involve using that theory, plus experience, to create things which are useful to people -they are professions, and have similar pay -they involve creating and meeting specifications ]Hell, being a graduate student in an engineering field doesn't even ]make you an engineer. Engineering is a professional not an academic ]field. Check the job titles of the people in the university ]engineering departments, you won't find any engineers, just TAs, ]instructors, and professors. There is some truth to this, depending on what these people do OTHER than teaching. Some research also involves a lot of engineering. This has NOTHING to do with alt.alien.visitors or sci.skeptic. -- John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253 (602-951-9326) ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john john@anasaz.UUCP anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu - - Self Righteousness is the Opiate of the Politically Correct - - - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver From: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov19.230839.4276@ctr.columbia.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 23:08:39 GMT References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> <6079@tamsun.tamu.edu> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose) Reply-To: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 24 >Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head >just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off. If it hit a limb, >it might have just caused a large flesh wound. Any asteroid victims >alive out there, wanting to tell us their story? > >-Brent > ho ho. anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in the 20th century. In one, one meterite came through the roof, through the kitchen table, and struck on person in the leg. Apparently the injury was not severe at all. In another case, a meteorite came through the roof, and landed on a person in bed. Apparently there was no real injury, at most a bruise. If I have the accuracy of these incidents wrong, let me know. (the alt.alien.visitors.flame.group rubs their hands together gleefully...) Tracy Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver From: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.atheism,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Scientists Think They Are HOLIER THAN THOU! Message-ID: <1991Nov19.231953.4388@ctr.columbia.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 23:19:53 GMT References: <1991Oct27.200030.514@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Nov10.143022.12068@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Nov18.025021.21301@wpi.WPI.EDU> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose) Reply-To: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17828 talk.religion.newage:7747 alt.atheism:18156 alt.alien.visitors:3206 In article <1991Nov10.143022.12068@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >In article <1991Nov9.223946.25244@wpi.WPI.EDU> drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: >> Religion deals with the truths of worlds OTHER than the physical >>one. > >worlds OTHER than the physical one? you mean fantasy worlds. Yes religeon >is about escaping from reality to find the inner truths of ones fantasies. > How can you say definitively that there are no real universes outside this physical one? There's no way to confirm (or deny) the existence of such worlds because, by definition, they would be outside this universe, and therefore unreachable and untestable. (Except of course for the folks who claim to have seen/travelled to these places, but that's a different topic.) >No but you forget religeon keeps poking its nose into the real world. It >talks of Creation,Noas Ark, Heaven Hell. These are all things purlorted to >really exist. Heaven and Hell definitely fall into the realm of "outside this universe." "Creation" implies "before Creation", which also falls outside this universe. Noah's Ark is the only thing you mentioned that might be testable. >The bible is taken as TRUTH but the bible has myths whose >setting is the real physical world. Obviously this will clash with science. True. I think the Bible contains much more metaphor than fact; especially the Old Testament. > >ALEX BUNKER As far as the Bible is concerned, there is plenty of stuff in there that can be interpreted as being based on some sort of physical phenomenon. Re, for example, Von Daniken and the old chestnut _Chariots of the Gods_. That book is pretty thin in most places but does make some good points. One more thing: In an anthro class I took it was pointed out that the Flood was probably based on a devastating flood in "The Cradle of Civilization" -- the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. They know for a fact that a flood there wiped out probably hundred of thousands of people. Perfect legend builder. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Please stop crossposting into t.r.na. and note to John Gibbons Message-ID: <1991Nov19.235855.5864@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 23:58:55 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 11 For all of you who continue to cross post a host of things into trna...will you kindly please stop it? People in that newsgroup are getting tired of the cross posting that has gone on to such a large extent. John Gibbons: If you are out there, please know that all my email TO YOU keeps bouncing back. If there is something you wish to discuss, please email me your phone number and/or address and I will try to make contact with you that way. Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!raven.alaska.edu!acad3.alaska.edu!fsrsg From: fsrsg@acad3.alaska.edu (Mycroft Holmes IV) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <19NOV91105751@acad3.alaska.edu> Date: 19 Nov 91 01:57:51 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <1991Nov18.170157.4584@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> Sender: news@raven.alaska.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: fsrsg@acad3.alaska.edu Organization: University of Alaska - Fairbanks Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17831 alt.paranormal:3707 alt.alien.visitors:3208 talk.religion.newage:7751 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a3 Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu In article <1991Nov18.170157.4584@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu>, kym@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (R. Kym Horsell) writes... >In article <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) writes: >>From: Truyen C. Lam >>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500 >>To: arvand >> >>>From LAICHO@UMDD.UMD.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991 >>Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu >> >>>I received this letter on e-mail. I donot know how and why I was the >>>selected lucky one. But if any body knows anything about these things >>>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what >>>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info. >[some chain letter or other deleted] Well, it's as good as outlawed at the computer system up here... so watch out. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!uts!euromath.dk!reus From: reus@danmat.euromath.dk (Jens Peter Reus Christensen) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: Date: 19 Nov 91 12:04:44 GMT References: <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: news@euromath.dk (USENET News System) Organization: University of Copenhagen, Dept. of Math. Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17832 alt.paranormal:3708 alt.alien.visitors:3209 talk.religion.newage:7752 In-Reply-To: arh@wam.umd.edu's message of 18 Nov 91 15:21:59 GMT Remember, send no money. Do not ignore this letter! St. Jude ***************************************** This is idol worship. Anybody who needs more blessing then God is willing to give can take it. -- |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Associate professor, Dr. phil | | | Jens Peter Reus Christensen | | | Department of mathematics | e-mail: reus@euromath.dk | | University of Copenhagen | reus@danmat.euromath.dk| | Universitetsparken 5 | phone: +45 3135 3133 ext. 458 | | DK-2100 Copenhagen | fax: +45 3135 4254 | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!news.bbn.com!news.bbn.com!wbe From: wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something Message-ID: Date: 19 Nov 91 20:54:24 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> <1713@gtx.com> Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3210 alt.paranormal:3709 NNTP-Posting-Host: crystal.bbn.com In-reply-to: al@gtx.com's message of 15 Nov 91 22:41:12 GMT In article <1713@gtx.com> al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) writes: Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke. Even worse. On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come close to Earth. It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991. It's also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program debris (Voyager? I forget which program he said). Presumably we'll find out more as it approaches. -WBE Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!motcsd!udc!mcdphx!hrc!gtx!al From: al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1718@gtx.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 22:11:05 GMT References: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Reply-To: al@gtx.UUCP (Alan Filipski) Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17833 alt.paranormal:3710 alt.alien.visitors:3211 misc.legal:22490 alt.folklore.urban:28398 In article <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: > > And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over >the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to >whoever is in charge... Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain letter under discussion. The type of chain letter that is illegal is the kind that requests you send money, or otherwise involves a swindle or de facto lottery. Call your local postal inspector if you don't believe me. It is not a crime, nor should it be, to waste your own stamps. Stupidity is not illegal (yet). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA ) ( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: Date: 19 Nov 91 17:46:26 GMT References: <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17836 alt.paranormal:3713 alt.alien.visitors:3212 talk.religion.newage:7755 Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net! I'm sick and tired of it! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!leping From: leping@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Leping N Zha) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Chinese - Russian Scientists Join to Prove the Body "Meridian Channels" Message-ID: <199094@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 05:14:53 GMT References: <1991Nov16.203133.13074@bilver.uucp> Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 82 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3213 alt.conspiracy:8764 sci.skeptic:17841 News from P.R.China : ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chinese and Soviet Scientists Cooperate to Confirm the Existence of the "Jinluo" Line ( Meridian Channels ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reflexology (manipulating areas on the feet to affect the rest of the body) was listed as "near bizarre" in a recent Times cover article on the alternative therapies (Claudia Wallis, "Why New Age Medicine is Catching On", November 4, 1991) compared with the "more credible" treatments like acupuncture, while they are both based on the same ancient Chinese theory of "Jinluo" system, the "meridian lines network" which links virtually all human (and animals as well reportedly) parts and passes the "qi" through them to maintain one's health and vitality. These channels are also strongly believed by most Chinese psi (EFHB in their term) researchers and qigong masters as the pathways of the subtle energies which carries psi informations. They even published papers measuring (mainly subjectively) the ESP message's propagating speed along the lines among the gifted EFHB children as typically several centimeters per second, and reported once the "qi feelings (usually tingling and bloating)" reach their forehead, the desired information appears as a picture on a special "TV screen" there. There are as many patients receiving the Jinlou-based traditional Chinese madicine treatment today in China as those who using Western medicien (many use both simultaneously since it is not unusual for a Western styled doctor, "Xi-Yi", also prescripts "Zhong-Yi" drugs and treatments along with Aspirin pills, etc.), since they took the Jinlou system as an established fact from their birth. No anatomic evidence of these channels was found so far, but studies on the subject is still carried in many state-funded Chinese traditional medicine centers, research institutes and universities. Professor Zhu Zong- xiang, who leads a group in the Institute of Biophysics of the Chinese Academy of Science (Academia Sinica) claimed that from 17 year's careful studies in his lab, they had proven there are really 14 Jinluo lines in the human body by three independent biophysical methods (Zhu Zongxiang, Xu Rui- min, et al., "A Study on the Low Impedance characteristics of the Meridian Lines before and after amputation", Ziran Zazhi[Nature Journal], 9, 281-287; Zhu Zongxiang, "The Advances and Prospect in Physiological and Biophysical Approaches to the Acupuncture Meridian System", Ziran Zazhi, 9, 327-332; additional references pending), including acoustic conduction speed and electrical conducting impedance. A detailed experimental channel location map had been produced by 1989. These claims have brought wide attentions among Chinese scientists and news media, partially because the claim is contradictory to a general believe that the system builds on the dynamic processes in the living body and therefore it will not be detectable in vitro. According to a recent news item from the official Xinhua News Agency (September 26, Beijing, Zhu Baihua reporting), Chinese and Soviet scientists are cooperating to further reveal the reality of meridian channels by using modern Biophysical means, and major progress has been made already. From the source, the research center headed by Professor Zhu signed a collaborate agreement with the Institute of Cytological Biophysics, Soviet Academy of Science, to lunch a series of morphological and biochemical experiments on Jinluo. The Soviet scientists would investigate the special structure of the channels by optical and electron microscopes, as well as to measure the lines objectively by biochemical (enzymic) methods. The news reports that the scientists from the both sides had made exchanges frequently since May, 1990. A delegation led by Professor Zhu visited the Soviet site in the past June, and Dr. Klamov (name translated from Chinese), director of the Cytological Biophysics Institute's radiology department, is working in the Professor Zhu's lab in Beijing. The report says the Russian researchers have successfully detected acupoints which on the whole agree with the Jinluo map made by Zhu's group. Also from other Xinhua reports, Dr. Qian Xuesen, the prominent Chinese rocketeer, Dr. Robert Jahn's predecessor of the Cal Tech Jet Propul- sion Laboratory's Goddard Professorship who provided the crucial supports to the China's psi studies from the very beginning, was granted by the party a one-of-the-kind "Outstanding Scientist Award" which was described as the highest honor ever to a scientist in China. The Chinese government had also started a "learn from Dr. Qian" movement throughout the nation's scientific and technological units. In the grant awarding ceremony attended by the party's top leaders, Dr. Qian mentioned that he will aim to further advance the "Somatic Science" research in China, among many other subjects like the Biological Sciences and System Science. ( November 16, 1991 ) Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something Message-ID: Date: 20 Nov 91 08:58:13 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> <1713@gtx.com> Sender: Larry Doering Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3214 alt.paranormal:3714 In article wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) writes: >In article <1713@gtx.com> al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) writes: > Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke. > >Even worse. On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that >astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come >close to Earth. It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will >apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991. It's >also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program >debris (Voyager? I forget which program he said). Presumably we'll find out >more as it approaches. I heard on NPR yesterday morning that it might be a Saturn V third stage from one of the Apollo missions. If so, it's probably closer to 100 feet long, but there's nothing to be worried about (unless you worry about the Moon falling on you). 250,000 miles is a fair distance away, and is about the average diameter of the Moon's orbit. Even if it did hit the Earth, it probably wouldn't have much effect. Remember, a modified Saturn V third stage _did_ hit the earth back in 1978 when Skylab reentered. Of course, Skylab was only moving at about 18,000 mph (typical velocity for low Earth orbit) when it reentered, and an object in a solar orbit would enter the Earth's atmosphere at about 25,000 mph. If you can find one of those anti-Skylab helmets some fool was selling in the summer of 1978, maybe you should dust it off... Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucivax!orion.oac.uci.edu!unogate!mvb.saic.com!ncr-sd!asihub.sd.cadence.com!chuck From: chuck@asihub.sd.cadence.com (Charles Surface) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov19.180258.3045@asihub.sd.cadence.com> Date: 19 Nov 91 18:02:58 GMT References: <1991Oct31.072253.26746@uwm.edu> <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: chuck@asihub.sd.cadence.com Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3715 alt.alien.visitors:3215 talk.religion.newage:7758 sci.skeptic:17849 In article <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes: > > Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an >extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of >network priviledges, action by the system administators of your >site/network connection including termination of your account/access, or >disciplinary action if you are at a university, up to and including >explusion, and possible legal prosecution. It also wastes limited >network resources and annoys countless people, numbering up to the >thousands, so *DON'T DO IT!* Raoul Ortega, of Venezuala, sent a chain letter over e-mail and contracted an inflamed colon within two hours. Loretta Donnely, of Newhurst, New Jersey, didn't send any, and received $1,200,333 three days later. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Surface {uunet|ncr-sd}!asihub!chuck Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Centre --------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo!apollo.hp.com!heff From: heff@apollo.HP.COM (Jeffery Oesterle) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something Message-ID: <1991Nov20.153717.18939@apollo.hp.com> Date: 20 Nov 91 15:37:17 GMT References: <1991Nov14.143031.17609@engage.pko.dec.com> <1713@gtx.com> Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3216 alt.paranormal:3716 Nntp-Posting-Host: soul_biter.ch.apollo.hp.com > In article wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) writes: > >In article <1713@gtx.com> al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) writes: > > Uh-oh, I'm beginning to suspect that this thread is not a joke. > > > >Even worse. On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that > >astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come > >close to Earth. It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will > >apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991. It's > >also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program > >debris (Voyager? I forget which program he said). Presumably we'll find out > >more as it approaches. > > I heard on NPR yesterday morning that it might be a Saturn V third stage > .. > average diameter of the Moon's orbit. Even if it did hit the Earth, it > probably wouldn't have much effect. Remember, a modified Saturn V third stage ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep. Today's Globe talked about it. It's apparently a room-sized asteroid, and it's unclear how much detail they'll be able to get. Objects that small that don't emit large amounts of energy are just _not_ easy to find, or observe. Also, they mentioned that objects of this size burn up enterring our atmosphere. jeff. Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Sigh.. there really is an asteroid or something Message-ID: <1991Nov20.143231.14618@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 20 Nov 91 16:07:42 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3217 alt.paranormal:3717 In article , wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) writes... >In article <1713@gtx.com> al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski) writes: >Even worse. On Paul Harvey news today just after noon, he announced that >astronomers have discovered a small object about 30' long that will come >close to Earth. It's trajectory is not yet known accurately, but it will >apparently pass about 250,000 miles from Earth on December 5, 1991. It's >also not yet known whether this is an asteroid, or a piece of space program >debris (Voyager? I forget which program he said). Presumably we'll find out >more as it approaches. > -WBE Maybe it's a space probe.... like Voyager... some *other* species's space probe, I hope. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua From: joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Date: 20 Nov 91 11:41:25 GMT References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> <6079@tamsun.tamu.edu> <1991Nov19.230839.4276@ctr.columbia.edu> Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL Lines: 38 twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: |>(someone else): |>>Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head |>>just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off. If it hit a limb, |>>it might have just caused a large flesh wound. Any asteroid victims |>>alive out there, wanting to tell us their story? |>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in |>the 20th century. |>In one, one meterite came through the roof, through the kitchen table, |>and struck on person in the leg. Apparently the injury was not severe |>at all. |>In another case, a meteorite came through the roof, and landed on a |>person in bed. Apparently there was no real injury, at most a bruise. These are meteorites. Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds. They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter. To get a rough idea of what a (large) asteroid striking the earth would do, have a look at the moon through a telescope, or photograph of the moon. You will notice a star shaped pattern centered around a large crater. This is where a large chunk of something-or-other struck the moon and came close to shattering it. The destruction caused by an asteroid striking the earth (I suppose this should be asterite, by analogy with meteoroid and meteorite) would vary depending on how large it was, how fast it was moving and whether it struck on land or water. If an appreciably sized one struck on land, it would be bad. If it struck in water it would be worse (I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why). josh Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!ken From: ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken Primer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 18:38:08 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Sender: usenet@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News) Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3219 alt.paranormal:3720 alt.angst:2569 zweig@cs.uiuc.edu (Johnny Zweig) writes: oi >>.. >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait? =:-0 -- Ken Primer Email to: ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!jls19 From: JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: The Twelth Planet Message-ID: <91324.124049JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 17:40:49 GMT Organization: Penn State University Lines: 6 Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's "The Twelth Planet"?? It deals with the translations of ancient Sumerian text. There is extraterrestrial seeding and verification of Biblical stories, such as Adam and Eve and the Great Flood with some interesting twists. Please post all comments. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker From: skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <8867@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 19:55:48 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Sender: usenet@bcm.tmc.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3221 alt.paranormal:3721 alt.angst:2570 Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu A article in the Houston Chronicle today said a object is indeed comming at the earth and will pass by on the 5 of Dec. They believe it might be a piece of a appolo upper stage left over from one of the moon shots.... tim -- I speak only for myself.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go blindfold to the wall" Robin Trower.... Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!emory!utkcs2!utkux1.utk.edu!kovarik From: kovarik@utkux1.utk.edu (SaintMeechTheChaste) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov20.195403.11913@utkux1.utk.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 19:54:03 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Tzentr Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3222 alt.paranormal:3722 alt.angst:2571 In article <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken Primer) writes: >zweig@cs.uiuc.edu (Johnny Zweig) writes: > >oi > >>>.. >>> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? >Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait? >=:-0 > On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Summary: yeah, it's a stupid chain letter. Message-ID: <6120@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 20:05:51 GMT References: <1991Nov4.191820.6009@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17860 alt.paranormal:3723 alt.alien.visitors:3223 talk.religion.newage:7761 arh@wam.umd.edu (Arash Kamangeer) writes: >From: Truyen C. Lam >Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 14:11:05 -0500 >To: arvand >>From LAICHO@UMDD.UMD.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:03:14 1991 >Received: from umdd.umd.edu by csc-srv.wam.umd.edu >>I received this letter on e-mail. I donot know how and why I was the >>selected lucky one. But if any body knows anything about these things >>to explain to me what is the purpose and meaning of such letters and what >>the sender(s) are trying to accomplish, I would appreciated the info. [..old chain letter deleted...] I've received that letter twice before; once in the mail and another time via email. That letter, in its electronic form, has probably been around the world 900 times (it claims a whopping 9 times). What's happened to me? Well, the first time I got the letter by email I quickly looked to see who was logged in at another university's machines, and zapped a couple copies to unknown people. Fun fun. I got some return mail, mainly saying "Don't forward chain letters. Your system administrator has been notified." Nothing ever came out of it. However, please don't bother forwarding this letter to anyone - it's such a waste. The normal paper copy I received was promptly thrown away and then soon after the Berlin wall was toppled. Coincidence? I think not! If you believe such utter bullshit, I pity you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!mm From: mm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mike MacKenzie) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Summary: I always did hate Mondays. Message-ID: <26780@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 20 Nov 91 20:27:32 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> Followup-To: poster Organization: Purdue University Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3224 alt.paranormal:3724 alt.angst:2572 > >> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S > >>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? $ cal 7 1992 July 1992 S M Tu W Th F S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Yep, the world ends on a Monday. Michael MacKenzie (Purdue University Unix Group) mm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b11!case From: case@b11.ingr.com (Bill Case) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov20.233537.3494@b11.ingr.com> Date: 20 Nov 91 23:35:37 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz> Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL Lines: 18 In article <1991Nov17.030509.25313@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes: > In article gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) writes: > ]>While in office, Jimmy Carter stated that he had seen an UFO (I believe > ]>the event had happened before he become president). It was nothing > ]>spectacular, just a strange, strong light just above the horizon. > ]> > A few months later it swooped in and got the Republican nomination. Not long > after that, poof, no more Carter. The nation was left muttering about 4 years > of missing time ... Don't forget the killer bunny he also closely encountered. Certainly sounded alien to any bunny I've met. Could it be the invasion force? Who'd of thought... Hmmm, was Mel Blance their propaganda mastermind? Thank god Jimmy saw the blood thirsty teeth behind the whiskers! Silly Wabbit? I don't think so...Hopping is unearthly. Frogs have the look, too! Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Date: 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 66 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5183 alt.alien.visitors:3226 sci.physics:14782 sci.skeptic:17869 Hello, I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. I believe that it should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science. Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group. A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) Let me cite one example as to the value of such a newsgroup. For example, if one has come to the conclusion that many UFO sightings are indeed caused by extraterrestrial spacecraft (because of one's interpretation of the available evidence), then this belief may require new theories of physics to take into account the observed anomalous motion (not easily explained by our current understanding of physics) and to account for how such a spacecraft could navigate the distance from other star systems to ours in a reasonable amount of time. (I would not be surprised that many scientists reject the extraterrestrial spacecraft explanation of UFO sightings precisely because such an explanation does not fit into our current understanding of physics.) A small list of other things that could be discussed include: * What is gravity? What about Sakharov's conjecture? Is anti-gravity possible? * How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications to our understanding of the universe. * Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of papers submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility, including some experimental evidence (which I admit is meager). Some of these papers discussed alternative theories of physics). Obviously truly fringe, but discussable in this newsgroup. * Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ). * Is time travel possible? * Cold fusion theories. etc. Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup, the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked about. If nothing else, it should be very interesting: the proponents can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have a good laugh! Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (415) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (415) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!stanford.edu!hsdndev!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 21 Nov 91 03:14:41 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 3 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3227 sci.physics:14789 sci.skeptic:17876 alt.config:5184 In-Reply-To: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse, still I think you should do it, it would be interesting. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!rigel.tamu.edu!dbn7350 From: dbn7350@rigel.tamu.edu (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Summary: Well, it's not quite THAT big.... :} Keywords: Apollo debris, asteroid, or alien space stuff? You decide... :} Message-ID: <20NOV199121472379@rigel.tamu.edu> Date: 21 Nov 91 02:47:00 GMT References: Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M Univeristy, Academic Computing Services Lines: 109 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , sa2y+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Anselmo Aiello) writes... >enough about the fictional asteroid please. thank you. Fictional you say? heh...heh...heh... Take a look at the story in today's New York Times (page 8A, national edition, Wed. Nov 20.) ---------- Mysterous Something Nears Earth William J. Broad It is not an alien spaceship. Of that astronomers are sure. But otherwise they have only questions about a mysterious object in space that will show up virtually on Earth's doorstep, as scientists measure these things, in a little more that two weeks. Astronomers say the object could be a new kind of asteroid or perhaps an old piece of the manned space program finding its way back home, possibly a lunar acsent module from two decades ago. In either case, nothing like it has been seen before. "We're very excited," said Dr. Tom Gehrels, a professor of lunar and planetary science at the University of Arizona, who heads the team that discovered the mystery visitor. "If it's a natural object, we're excited because it's a new type. And no Apollo hardware has ever been observed like this. So it's very exciting for us one way or another." Dr. Paul W. Chodas, an orbital scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in pasadena, Calif., called th object very intriguing. He said he had unsuccesfully tried to match it's orbit to the trajectories of known space debris from the Apollo program. "Our best guess is that it's natural," Dr. Chodas said, adding that his computations were crude and that it was too early to know anything for sure. Discovered Two Weeks Ago The objectwas discovered on Nov. 6 with a 36-inch telescope atop Kitt Peak in southern Arizona. The telescope, which belongs to the University of Arizona, is operated by Dr. Gehrels and a small team of astronomers, Spacewatch, who search the sky for asteroids that might hit the Earth. The enigmatic visitor will not present a threat to the Earth, with its closest approach brining it to within about 290,000 miles on Dec. 5. But in a scientific world that is used to dealing with distances of light- years, that is a mere stone's throw. The object, estimated to be 6 feet to 36 feet in diameter, clearly orbits the Sun. It is now about 1.2 million miles from the Earth. Even at its closest, he object will be tens of thousands of miles beyond the orbit of the Moon. Astronomers in Arizona are observing the object to see it its brightness is changing, which would hint at its speed of rotation. If spinning relatively quickly, rotating in seconds or minutes, it would probably be a relatively light objuce made by man. But a heavy object like an asteroid would spin more slowly, taking hours for a single revolution. Most asteroids, craggy remnants from the creation of the solar system that revolves around the Sun, are in orbits between those of Mars and Jupiter. But some follow a more eccentric course that takes them across the path of the Earth. These asteroids usually have eliptical orbits, cutting huge arcs through the solar system. What is perplexing about the mystery visitor is that its orbit is circular, or nearly so. " The orbit is remarkably similar to that of the Earth," Dr. Gehrels said. "It could take a couple of weeks before we know what it is, if ever," he said. "It's very difficult stuff. The object is very faint." Dr. Gehrels is trying to raise $1.8 million for a new 72-inch telescope that would make such observations easier. There are far bigger telescopes in the world, but they are not dedicated to scanning the sky for asteroids near the Earth. Astronomers from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, working with the giant radio telescope near Arecibo, Puerto Rico, which can work like a radar, hope to join the observational studies in the next few weeks. Used as a radar, the device would bounce signals off the object, and the reflected signals would better disclose its composition. Case for Apollo Debris James E. Oberg, a space historian, said dozens of large objects were put into solar orbit from 1968 to 1972 as part of the Apollo program. These included third stages from the giant Saturn V rocket, huge protective panels around the lunar landers, and in one case, a lunar ascent module ment to carry astronauts back to the command ship. The module was test fired from an apolo spacecraft in orbit around the moon in preparaion for the first manned landing. He said the current object might be the first of a wave of Apollo debris that could come sweeping by the Earth in the next few years. The orbital period of the Earth and the Apollo debris going around the Sun would be very similar, Mr. Odberg said. "So it would take decades for one to overtake the other." Dr. Gehrels ruled out the possibility that the visitor might be an alien spaceship. "If you spent centuries coming here, you wouldn't fly by and go away," he said. "So that takes care of U.F.O.'s. On the other hand, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep an open mind about these things." ---------- Misspellings are my typos. dbn3. ------------------------------------ Internet: DBN7350@venus.tamu.edu | Bitnet: dbn7350@tamvenus | insert your own dumb quote. . . AT&Tnet:409-847-3580 | Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces From: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Date: 21 Nov 91 04:18:57 GMT Sender: news@cs.mcgill.ca (Netnews Administrator) Organization: McGill University Lines: 24 On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with three white lights and a red, pulsating light in the centre. The beams from the lights lit up the ground. Some police followed the UFOs and watched them for a long time as they hovered silently overhead. The military reported that several radar stations picked one such object up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object. It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds. A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990. (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.) This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember reading a few days later of sightings in Europe, with UFOs having varying numbers of lights. In the report about UFOs in Belgium, some witnesses saw one "craft", which had three lights, "shrink" to a single white light and move rapidly away. They also witnessed a kind of ball of red light to descend from the pulsating red light at the centre of the craft. What on earth could these craft be doing? Are they just saying -- "Hey, look at us -- we're here"? To hover for so long with so many human witnesses seems sort of exhibitionistic. Any (serious) ideas about the purpose of such activity? Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!vex!allenk From: allenk@vex.ugcs.caltech.edu (Allen Knutson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 21 Nov 91 05:38:46 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 2 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3230 sci.physics:14794 sci.skeptic:17878 alt.config:5188 Nntp-Posting-Host: vex.ugcs.caltech.edu I think the main use of alt.physics (though I do not like the name) will be as a place to set followups, and because of this I think it is a great idea. Path: ns-mx!uunet!seas.smu.edu!utacfd.uta.edu!trsvax!rwsys!sneaky!gordon From: gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov20.235730.13057@sneaky.lonestar.org> Date: 20 Nov 91 23:57:30 GMT References: <1991Nov19.033223.16418@watserv1.waterloo.edu> <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1718@gtx.com> Organization: Gordon Burditt Lines: 23 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17879 alt.paranormal:3731 alt.alien.visitors:3231 misc.legal:22571 alt.folklore.urban:28466 >> And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over >>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to >>whoever is in charge... >Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great >certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just >double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not >illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain >letter under discussion. The type of chain letter that is illegal is All of the "good luck" chain letters I have seen appear to be THREATS of bad luck if you don't send the letter out. They usually include several examples of someone having bad luck when they didn't send out the letters, such as losing a job or having an auto accident. The US postal regulations against chain letters are not the only ones applicable here. If a letter went so far as to threaten that I would drop dead if I didn't send out some letters, I think I'd be able to press charges and get a conviction. I'm not sure about the latest one sent by email. Gordon L. Burditt sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!hartlemp From: hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Michael P. Hartley) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <26906@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 21 Nov 91 07:56:02 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 17 In article <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: >On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report >about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with >... >military reported that several radar stations picked one such object >up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object. >It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and >it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds. You forgot to mention that the NATO base near the sightings scrambled several F-16s, and the object on radar seemed to play with them. As soon as the aircraft got a radar lock on the object, it would zip out of range, then slow down, and let the aircraft catch up. Also, after dropping to 500 ft, it climbed back up, and with the speed that the radar showed, I calculated that it had to do about a 17G pull up at the bottom. The radar recordings from the aircraft were shown on the show. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caen!malgudi.oar.net!sunc.osc.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sample.eng.ohio-state.edu!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!hartlemp From: hartlemp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Michael P. Hartley) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <26904@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 21 Nov 91 07:47:37 GMT References: <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1718@gtx.com> <1991Nov20.235730.13057@sneaky.lonestar.org> Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17881 alt.paranormal:3732 alt.alien.visitors:3233 misc.legal:22575 alt.folklore.urban:28481 In article <1991Nov20.235730.13057@sneaky.lonestar.org> gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) writes: >>> And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over >>>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to >>>whoever is in charge... DON'T PASS ON CHAIN LETTERS!!! (pass this message on. If you don't, something bad may happen to you) Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Articles by Ware, Duane Cook, Editor Message-ID: <1991Nov21.180523.10944@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 21 Nov 91 07:05:23 GMT References: <1991Nov16.201226.12049@bilver.uucp> Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 63 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3234 alt.conspiracy:8799 sci.skeptic:17882 > > ED SHARES PAST YEAR'S EXPERIENCES ON UFO SIGHTING'S > ANNIVERSARY >..........a phenomena that jolted me to the reality of UFOs. A > phenomena that is being witnessed all over the world and here > at home by dozens of our fellow residents. This reality..... > I do not try to convince or persuade....... Oh, really?...sounds like you are to me, Ed. > I was asked to take a lie detector test. Again the > ridicule was hurled toward me and yet another lie detector test. Why? They are inadmissable and irelevant. > There was a very serious attempt to destroy > my reputation by twisting spooky party games into ritual seances. you play spooky party games? > Having failed to discredit the photographic evidence, the out of > town critics have mounted a slander campaign hoping to brand me. > Thank you Gulf Breeze for ignoring these outrageous rumors. > > resulting examination of the tape on a PSE (Psychological Stress > Evaluator) vindicated my word once more when the examiner > said the result "does not show any reaction to cause this examiner > to doubt his (Ed's) answers." > Doesn't sound like vindication to me. See my comments re lie detector. > and several times I have > been blackmailed in their quest for a scoop to expose my name. Did you lay charges? > From Nov. 11 to May 1, 1988 (my last sighting), I have been > stedfast to the truth as the storm of controversy, both positive > and negative, continued to build in the media. The most > troublesome question of the controversy is "Why have I had so > many sightings?" I can not explain the "why" questions, the most > disturbing one being, "Why Me?" > What about "Why did they stop?" > life goes on-- >even life we may not understand Have these sightings provided anything other than photos? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ulrik!news From: jeberg@usit.uio.no Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Summary: ..any ideas about the purpose of such activity? Keywords: UFO's seen i Belgium. Message-ID: <1991Nov21.112724.5649@ulrik.uio.no> Date: 21 Nov 91 11:27:24 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Sender: news@ulrik.uio.no (Mr News) Organization: USE, Universitetet i Oslo Lines: 29 Nntp-Posting-Host: 129.240.34.165 In article <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: >On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report >about UFO sightings in Belgium. The UFOs were triangular in shape with >three white lights and a red, pulsating light in the centre. The beams >from the lights lit up the ground. Some police followed the UFOs and >watched them for a long time as they hovered silently overhead. The >military reported that several radar stations picked one such object >up on radar screens, and its behaviour was unlike any man-made object. >It accelerated to twice the speed of sound (without a sonic boom), and >it descended from 10,000 feet to 500 feet in 5 seconds. > >A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990. >(The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.) >This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of >it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping >mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember >reading a few days later of sightings in Europe, with UFOs having varying >numbers of lights. In the report about UFOs in Belgium, some witnesses >saw one "craft", which had three lights, "shrink" to a single white >light and move rapidly away. They also witnessed a kind of ball of red >light to descend from the pulsating red light at the centre of the craft. >What on earth could these craft be doing? Are they just saying -- "Hey, >look at us -- we're here"? To hover for so long with so many human >witnesses seems sort of exhibitionistic. Any (serious) ideas about the >purpose of such activity? > Could i t not be they're looking for a place to settle down, now that their world is comming to an end due to pollution!? Check list; world is out!!!! Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: X the bodydigger comes of age Message-ID: <91324.225843UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 21 Nov 91 03:58:43 GMT References: <1991Nov19.131448.28298@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 8 Hmmmmmmmm.....X the bodydigger...... Is he any relation to V the Nosepicker? Just wondering. :-) George Newell umasp@maine.maine.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!pwilson From: pwilson@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Pete Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov21.155543.18171@watserv1.waterloo.edu> Date: 21 Nov 91 15:55:43 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3237 sci.physics:14807 sci.skeptic:17888 alt.config:5191 In article fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes: > > There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse, >still I think you should do it, it would be interesting. Maybe it would get some of the flaming out of sci.physcis and into the land of the weirdos, where it belongs :) Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!utzoo!censor!geac!maccs!physun!bunker From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <1991Nov19.111340.25344@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Date: 19 Nov 91 16:05:10 GMT References: <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17895 alt.alien.visitors:3238 In article <1991Nov15.065737.4820@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > >I heard somewhere that president Jimmy Carter had seen a UFO while in >office. Does anybody else know anything about this or can anybody >provide any references? > >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ >\ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ pullen@lynx.cs.washington.edu \ / \ / \ / >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ In fact the event took place before he was president. He was at a party and a whole bunch of them walked out into the backyard and saw a bright pulsating light in the sky. They really put their collective feet in their mouths when they reported this to the authorities. Know what they mistook for a flying saucer????? VENUS!!!! BA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! ALEX BUNKER Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!copper!aspen.craycos.com!jrbd From: jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> Date: 21 Nov 91 17:13:49 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> Organization: Cray Computer Corporation Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3239 alt.conspiracy:8805 sci.skeptic:17896 In article <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. > > STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION > by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991. > > On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile >bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a >bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze. > The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that >way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their >direction. They detected no sound from the object. > Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a >brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes >and there were nine additional witnesses. This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west. Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws... Path: ns-mx!uunet!lanai!jd From: jd@Eyring.COM (James Perry) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov21.172101.2537@Eyring.COM> Date: 21 Nov 91 17:21:01 GMT References: <199059@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1718@gtx.com> <1991Nov20.235730.13057@sneaky.lonestar.org> Organization: Eyring Corp. Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17899 alt.paranormal:3735 alt.alien.visitors:3240 misc.legal:22601 alt.folklore.urban:28496 In article <1991Nov20.235730.13057@sneaky.lonestar.org> gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) writes: >>> And for those not sure... Chain letters are illegal, both over >>>the net and in the US Snail. DON'T SEND THEM OUT. Report the senders to >>>whoever is in charge... > >>Despite the fact that people repeatedly assert this with great >>certainty, it is incorrect (at least as far as US mail goes). I just >>double-checked with the USPS and they told me the following: It is not >>illegal to send out copies of the "good luck" or "prayer" type of chain >>letter under discussion. The type of chain letter that is illegal is [stuff deleted] > >The US postal regulations against chain letters are not the only ones >applicable here. If a letter went so far as to threaten that I would >drop dead if I didn't send out some letters, I think I'd be able to >press charges and get a conviction. I'm not sure about the latest >one sent by email. Regardless of legality, I have a very strong objection to any kind of electronic chain letter. The goal of any chain letter is unbounded propagation, and this (as was demonstrated a few years ago by Mr. Morris) is a bad thing on the internet and networks in general. Much computing time is wasted by countless copies of a useless and purposeless letter (IMHO). A USPS chain letter can be just thrown away (it's their stamp, not mine) but an electronic chain letter uses my (any many other's) computing resources. Granted, this may not be much loss, my machine has more idle time than time wasted on chain letters by several orders of magnitude, but that isn't the point. I think a chain letter violates the implicit charter of the USENET network, and has little if any regard for the rights of others on the net. In other words: WASTED BANDWIDTH. -- ____ Jim Perry |\ /|||o\ ___ "...wordt de stem van het water jd@Eyring.COM ||><|||(|_> /o \/| gevreesd en gehoord" |/ \||||/ \___/\| - Hendrik Maarsman Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bio file of some UFO researchers Message-ID: <1991Nov21.022809.7465@bilver.uucp> Date: 21 Nov 91 02:28:09 GMT References: <1991Nov17.191827.103@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov18.141603.10417@convex.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 20 In article <1991Nov18.141603.10417@convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: > >What, no entry for Jacques Vallee? >-- > _. >--Steve ._||__ > Warren v\ *| > V Not yet, but it should be easy enough to do. I'll look around and see what I can dig up. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov21.191132.21178@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Date: 21 Nov 91 19:11:32 GMT References: <1991Nov14.210126.3207@anasaz> <1991Nov16.172111.6499@ctr.columbia.edu> <6079@tamsun.tamu.edu> <1991Nov19.230839.4276@ctr.columbia.edu> <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 27 In article <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) writes: >twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: >|>(someone else): > >|>>Well, it probably crushed their skull, but if it hit their head >|>>just right, it mightv'e completely knocked it off. If it hit a limb, >|>>it might have just caused a large flesh wound. Any asteroid victims >|>>alive out there, wanting to tell us their story? > >|>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in >|>the 20th century. deleted > >These are meteorites. > >Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds. > >They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter. Hmmm. I wonder what the technical term for a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere or the term used to label it after it impacts the ground is? I wonder where the litlle bits of rock we call meteorites come from? Tell me, what is the most likely source for proto-meteor(ite) material? James Nicoll Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uflorida!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!sol!bnw!p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us!Nicholas.C..Hester From: Nicholas.C..Hester@p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us (Nicholas C. Hester) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invasion!! Message-ID: <554.292B841D@bnw.debe.fl.us> Date: 21 Nov 91 08:09:57 GMT Sender: ufgate@bnw.debe.fl.us (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:3609/1.0 - Brave New Wor, Delray Beach FL Lines: 51 NOTE: This message was originally addressed to ALL and was forwarded to you by TOM MONAHAN -------------------- AREA:ALIEN_VISITORS From: IA80024@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Nicholas C. Hester) Date: 9 Nov 91 14:20:56 GMT Organization: University of Maine System Message-ID: <91313.092056IA80024@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors In article <91312.171623UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, says: > >/*/* Begin Emergency Transmission. > >WE HAVE BEEN EXPOSED! GO IMMEDIATELY YOUR REGIONAL SECTOR HEADQUARTERS >TO RECEIVE EMERGENCY CONTINGENCY PLAN-B DOCUMENTS! > >CEASE ALL CLONING ACTIVITIES UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. > >INFORM ALL CLONES TO OBTAIN ORIGINAL HANDWRITING SAMPLES OF THEIR HOST HUMANS. > >INITIATE AUTOMATED SUBLIMINAL TRANSMISSIONS TO ALL TV AND RADIO STATIONS. > >ORGANIZE SEARCH GROUPS TO FIND AND TERMINATE THE EARTHING IDENTIFIED AS >'GARY STOLLMAN'. HE IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN IMMEDIATE AND SERIOUS THREAT TO >OUR GOALS. USE WHATEVER MEANS ARE NECESSARY TO REMOVE THIS MENACE FROM US, >EVEN IF YOU MUST ELIMINATE OTHER HUMANS TO COMPLETE THE OBJECTIVE. > >WE MUST NOT FAIL. OUR GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED. THE 'GREAT ONE' EXPECTS ONLY >SUCCESS FROM US. HE WILL NOT ACCEPT FAILURE. STOP AT NOTHING TO COMPLETE >YOUR MISSION. > >/*/* End transmission. Wow!! Those Fundamentalist Xtians are really getting radical!!! __ Nicholas C. Hester ia80024@Maine.Bitnet ia80024@Maine.Maine.edu = -- INTERNET: Nicholas.C..Hester@p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uflorida!mthvax.cs.miami.edu!sol!bnw!p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us!Jim.Shaffer From: Jim.Shaffer@p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: An UFO over Mexico city. Message-ID: <555.292B841D@bnw.debe.fl.us> Date: 21 Nov 91 08:10:42 GMT Sender: ufgate@bnw.debe.fl.us (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:3609/1.0 - Brave New Wor, Delray Beach FL Lines: 38 NOTE: This message was originally addressed to ALL and was forwarded to you by TOM MONAHAN -------------------- AREA:ALIEN_VISITORS From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Date: 10 Nov 91 22:59:16 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors In article <91313.163841SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: > >So does anyone else think that that mysterious organism they found in >Texas just HAS to be the owner of that mysterious machine they found >in Utah? Inquiring minds want to know... What mysterious organism in Texas? Do you mean the mysterious organism in St. Louis, Missouri, or is there another one? By the way, I'm going to post the story for those who didn't see it. I was mainly waiting for someone else to mention it so I didn't look ridiculous, because I doubt if very many people saw it. (If you saw it somewhere other than WNEP's noon newscast, two Fridays ago, let me know.) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") w -- INTERNET: Jim.Shaffer@p0.f1.n3609.z1.bnw.debe.fl.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <50536@cup.portal.com> Date: 21 Nov 91 16:11:52 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 39 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17904 alt.alien.visitors:3245 FYI This is being posted for John Winston. As some of you may remember, John was told he could not post from his work place. So I have offered him net access through my account. I do not censor what he posts. And I have advised him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he wants to keep cross posting, so what can I do? So look at it this way, at least I run his posts through a spell checker. :-) Don Showen The following is from the book UFO FROM VENUS I CAME An Autobiography by OMNEC ONEC Copyright 1986 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Cover Page This is a limited first edition published exclusively for those few individuals who understand and are interested in the nature of other intelligent beings in the vast universe and how they got here and why. W.C.Stevens from page 259 About the same time, in the middle 1950s, there were other equally extensive contacts with UFOnauts who said they came from Venus. There were the contacts of Lt. Comdr. Frank Halsey and his wife Tarna of Salt Lake city, that took place all around their home area and even as they traveled around the country. Mrs. Halsey says that the couple was summoned to the White House for an hour and a half discussion in the oval office, alone, with President Dwight D. Eisenhour, after his meeting with a team of Venusians at Muroc Air Force Base in California in the early 1950s. the Venusians arrived in several disc-shaped spacecraft and remained at the U.S. airbase awaiting the arrival of the President by helicopter from Palm Springs; and then also remained overnight with their aircraft sheltered in a hangar on the flightline. Mrs. Halsey said that when she asked the President why he didn't announce his meeting to the American people, she says he answered, "My dear, even a President can not do all that he would like. It is out of the question." Two of those participants in the Eisenhour meetings are still alive today. I am advised that a 5-star Admiral, "Bull" Halsey, then Commander of the Pacific Fleet, an uncle to the aforementioned Frank Halsey, also had a contact with UFOnauts who said they came from Venus. These are pretty powerful statements, but I have interviewed two eyewitnesses who confirmed that these events did actually take place. Path: ns-mx!uunet!morrow.stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Neon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan From: amorgan@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <1991Nov21.215338.15275@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> Date: 21 Nov 91 21:53:38 GMT References: <50536@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University, Ca , USA Lines: 53 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17905 alt.alien.visitors:3246 In article <50536@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >FYI >This is being posted for John Winston. As some of you may remember, John (I left in the bit about John Winston just so we know who to flame :) ) ..... deleted ..... >Cover Page >This is a limited first edition published exclusively for those few >individuals who understand and are interested in the nature of other >intelligent beings in the vast universe and how they got here and why. >W.C.Stevens > >from page 259 >About the same time, in the middle 1950s, there were other equally extensive >contacts with UFOnauts who said they came from Venus. There were the contacts >of Lt. Comdr. Frank Halsey and his wife Tarna of Salt Lake city, that took >place all around their home area and even as they traveled around the country. >Mrs. Halsey says that the couple was summoned to the White House for an hour >and a half discussion in the oval office, alone, with President Dwight D. >Eisenhour, after his meeting with a team of Venusians at Muroc Air Force Base >in California in the early 1950s. the Venusians arrived in several disc-shaped >spacecraft and remained at the U.S. airbase awaiting the arrival of the >President by helicopter from Palm Springs; and then also remained overnight >with their aircraft sheltered in a hangar on the flightline. Mrs. Halsey said >that when she asked the President why he didn't announce his meeting to the >American people, she says he answered, "My dear, even a President can not do >all that he would like. It is out of the question." Two of those participants >in the Eisenhour meetings are still alive today. I am advised that a 5-star >Admiral, "Bull" Halsey, then Commander of the Pacific Fleet, an uncle to the >aforementioned Frank Halsey, also had a contact with UFOnauts who said they >came from Venus. These are pretty powerful statements, but I have interviewed >two eyewitnesses who confirmed that these events did actually take place. I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators, bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President *wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long. Amazing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions above are not mine. I stole them all from the person sitting next to me. If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Watch out! This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <1991Nov21.224555.394@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 21 Nov 91 22:45:55 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 15 Ahhhhhhh....Venus....Planet of Love. So, John Winston, what do YOU have to say about all of this? For my own self, I think I would like to meet some Venusians to see if they REALLY are about the idea: "Love makes the world go 'round." :-) And beautiful Aphrodite, pictured in that Botticelli painting, I notice she is a redhead!!! Just out of curiosity, are there any redheaded men out there that read this newsgroup? Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!verifone.com!ron_s From: ron_s@verifone.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Sentinel Newspaper UFO Reports Message-ID: <1991Nov21.093412.3229@verifone.com> Date: 21 Nov 91 19:34:12 GMT References: <1991Nov16.200502.11703@bilver.uucp> Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3248 alt.conspiracy:8809 sci.skeptic:17908 In article <1991Nov16.200502.11703@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > > > SCIENTIST STUDIES SIZE AND DISTANCE OF UFO >...... > Multiple sightings and photographs help scientists locate the > size and distance of the red glowing object that flew over Gulf > Breeze on Wednesday, April 18, 1990. Several of the thirty-plus > witnesses who saw the object also video taped the sighting > which further aids the investigation. Using the 35 mm photos > of the object, the angle of elevation and distance to the object > was calculated to be approximately 3.4 miles when first seen > to approximately 1.7 miles when the object disappeared. > .......> > From April 11 to April 18, there were five multiple witness > sightings involving as many as 60 people, four videotapes and > dozens of photos. > Actually, the alien spaceships really want to land and let us get a good look and some closeup color snapshots, but it seems that body odors and other effluents from the human body, (like speech), dissolves the surface metals of their partly spiritual, partly physical crafts --- and they have no choice but to beat it out of there, wherever there happens to be.. The USAF already knows about this, so only sightings by unsmelly robots are taken seriously. The robots are totally convinced that UFOs exist. The existence of humans is only temporary. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!blaze.cs.jhu.edu!wilson From: wilson@blaze.cs.jhu.edu (Dwight Wilson) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <1991Nov22.003257.8609@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 00:32:57 GMT References: <50536@cup.portal.com> <1991Nov21.215338.15275@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> Organization: The Johns Hopkins University CS Department Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17909 alt.alien.visitors:3249 In article <1991Nov21.215338.15275@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> amorgan@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog) writes: >In article <50536@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >>FYI >>This is being posted for John Winston. As some of you may remember, John > > (I left in the bit about John Winston just so we know who to flame :) ) > >..... deleted ..... >> [UFO related "information" deleted] > >I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators, >bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge >despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet >something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President >*wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long. > The truly paranoid among us might claim that the government ALLOWS such leaks or even manufactures such events as misdirection. Personally, I don't think they're that bright... or ar they? Now, where do I find alt.paranoid? For the extremely humor impaired: This is not really intended as a serious argument. -- -Dwight "Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons." -Alien Monster on The Simpsons Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!erisande From: erisande@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (erin s anderson) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov22.020950.27386@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 02:09:50 GMT References: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Indiana University Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3739 alt.alien.visitors:3250 talk.religion.newage:7774 sci.skeptic:17911 Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu In article <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes: > > Sending chain letters on the Internet (and many other networks) is an >extremely serious violation of policies and can result in termination of >network priviledges, [...] I've noticed that if you forward the letter to the computer center along with a small note saying "I thought you ought to know..." they will like you MUCH better and will not take your privs away if the letter is caught on down the line with your name on it. The only bad thing is... The poeple who DO get their accounts suspended hate you dearly. Erin - -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey girl As I've always said I perfer your lips red Not what the good Lord made But what he intended ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Waters - The Pro's and Con's of Hitch Hiking @->-- Erin Anderson Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <1991Nov22.022640.28300@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 03:25:24 GMT References: <50536@cup.portal.com> <1991Nov21.215338.15275@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu Distribution: na Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17913 alt.alien.visitors:3251 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu In article <1991Nov21.215338.15275@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, amorgan@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog) writes... >I have always been amused by the fact that the sexual peccadillos of Senators, >bribes, fraud, covert operations, infighting, etc. are common knowledge >despite the best efforts of the Government to keep it under cover, yet >something as big as space aliens landing in our back yard which the President >*wanted* to be revealed to the world has remained a secret for so long. > >Amazing. > Yawn... Jim Graham -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <- Neither do they speak for me. ______________________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!jgraham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) | | (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |______________________________________________________________________| Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov21.201929.2954@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 21 Nov 91 20:19:29 GMT References: <4683@shodha.enet.dec.com> <1991Nov16.215126.16045@javelin.sim.es.com> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 22 In article <1991Nov16.215126.16045@javelin.sim.es.com>, KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes: > > Although the asteroid being dicussed is a myth, the danger of an asteroid > striking the earth is not nonexistent. In 1989 a small (and previously > uncharted asteroid) came withing about 1 million miles (4 x the distance of > the moon) and last year a smaller one passed between the Earth and Moon. Erm, what sort of size is 2 / 1 million \ |-----------------| ? \Diameter of Earth/ "Not non-existant", indeed, but not something I've noticed as a specific clause in my insurance policies. Unless, of course, it comes under "act of God". Or act of Pleiadeans... Jan PS This has been bugging me for some time. Are the Pleiades really as close as they look, or is it just the fortuitous alignment from earth? Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!ameij From: ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov21.202406.2955@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 21 Nov 91 20:24:06 GMT References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 17 In article <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: > > Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit > Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus, > all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid > HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance > in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every > seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during > any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000. > So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years, or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population . Ian Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucivax!orion.oac.uci.edu!unogate!mvb.saic.com!ncr-sd!savage!zap From: zap@savage.UUCP (Zap Savage) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <822@savage.UUCP> Date: 21 Nov 91 18:36:38 GMT References: <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> Organization: Savage Research, Inc. (San Diego, CA, USA) Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17914 alt.alien.visitors:3254 In <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM>, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > I would tend to believe J.C.'s claims that what he saw was unidentifiable > (that is, it was not Venus). I say this since J.C. was an engineer > (and of course, engineers are infallible :^) ), and thus could be called > a trained observer. An estimate of distance would only be made by him > if there was reason to believe so. Venus would only be a point of light, > even under extreme atmospheric conditions, thus any trained observer could > not make distance estimations. I wonder if J.C. in his report gave > an estimate of the angle subtended by the UFO using the object held at > arm's length technique? The impact of the observation obviously made an > impact on him. Yeah, but this is the guy who worked on nuclear submarines and couldn't pronounce the word "nuclear"! It came out something like nucular. Zap --- Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc. "Physics is experience, arranged in economical order." - Ernst Mach "Expletive deleted." - White House transcripts Path: ns-mx!uunet!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!harwood From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <43473@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 04:51:02 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Lines: 124 In article <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: >On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report >about UFO sightings in Belgium. ... ........................... Any (serious) ideas about the >purpose of such activity? \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ I saw the show, but I'm not yet persuaded of anything yet by purported evidence for UFOs being alien craft of some sort. But just supposing, I think we might well assume that alien spacecraft are not manned by biological lifeforms. They are too vulnerable, and I imagine that an advanced rational species lives very long ordinarily, putting a high value on life (and perhaps some amusing intellectual pursuits). On the other hand, surely they would engage in some sort of 'cultural anthropology,' shall we say. It is an interesting question what might be their moral and religious concepts, also whether they might 'tamper' with the data, so to speak, although I suppose there must be communication among more than one such advanced species if there are more than one. There are two means already known to us, never discussed much, by which an advanced extraterrestial species could visit Earth. One is to physically send robots. These could withstand great physical stress and require far less energy for transportation than a biological species. (Eg they could withstand very high accelerations (much higher than any biological life form), and require almost no energy for 'life support' between solar systems (when they are in standby mode ;-). No doubt they would use some sort of 'stealth' technology too, and have a variety of sensors including some based on laser technology which we do not understand yet. There are two questions about this suggestion, though. What is the source of their still very large energy? Is the craft essentially a computer plus reactor plus servos plus sensors - a robot? Also, obviously the robot has some sort of very advanced artificial intelligence (a creative amusement of our advanced ET species?) But it may be possible that the ET species' intelligence is partly assimilated, making for a better robot observer. Anyway, the point is that the spacecraft should be robots or something like androids perhaps - not holding their presumably biological creators. (I doubt that there are non-biological original rational species - there are good scientific reason, published by others, why this ought to be.) There is another very, very plausible way, besides this, that ET species could 'visit' other worlds, very fast, without physically transporting themselves or physical representatives. They can very simply transmit "computer codes" along with designs for hardware (using pictures, diagrams, etc which can be easily understood- I mean, computer architectures are simple as designs, a little harder to manufacture, though.) These "codes" plus hardware "represent" the species here as a robot. This is much faster than sending a physical robot; however this 'transport' can only be achieved to worlds than have the technology to recieve the communication (about the same as required to actually build the robot - as both occur in our century, whose technology originates with the investigation of the power of mathematical formalization (made famous by early 20th century logicians- Hilbert, Russell, and others). Beyond this, it is also possible that an advanced ET species could 'visit' such a "high-tech" world physically very fast, in a sense, by simply transmitting a "code" and "interpreter" for how to genetically construct the alien species here by synthetic biochemistry. (Already, we can do some of this for earth species. Of course, the interpreter might well be different for an alien species. (It is surprisingly the same for all species on Earth, except for one anomaly.) And we would need instructions for "baby-sitting" and maybe some alien educational materials. (Plus a suitable enviroment- no smoking please!) I suppose that everyone reading this knows about a famous argument called the "Zoo hypothesis" - made by an astronomer, I believe. It deserves to be well known - far better than Carl Sagan's hypotheses about ET's which are quite unimaginative (and erroneous). [Sagan, of course, is familiar with this hypothesis, which is well-known among astronomers, physicists, etc.] It is a very compelling argument: I won't go through all the straightforward assumptions - but the conclusion is that if there are any advanced ET species in our galaxy, they are almost certainly far advanced of us (in terms of years of scientific civilization- we are no more than 5000 years old, and really our scientific civilization originates with the invention of two things - the printing press and the calculus- since mathematical science requires that human memory is augmented by arbitrary amounts of external "memory" and since the calculus was the first, most revolutionary tool for technology based on mathematical science - so our modern technological civilization is only a few hundred years old. (Computers also augment human intelligence obviously, but they are based on "external memory" and symbolic "calculi". They add speed as a substitute for our slow biological hardware.) So we are infants among any advanced ET species. Furthermore, it is argued that it is virtually certain that IF there is any such advanced ET species, one or more would have almost certainly explored the entire galaxy (many times according to the simple, very plausible calculations) already before now, if the exploration was a diffusion, as opposed as to seek and return (and why would a robot return immediately anyway, especially if it could transmit information back "home.") They should have been here long ago (even before there were human beings). Moreover, the galaxy should be filled with them - they should be inhabiting every inhabitable world and constantly visitng everywhere else I suppose. Moreover, the argument goes - there should be a predominant ET culture, as a matter of cultural and technological diffusion, which absorbs everything. It should come to fill everywhere. At this point we have to ask, if our planet (which is really very much rarer than Carl $. Sagan publicly claims) was visited before our time, but when habitable- how come they didn't colonize our world? We clearly evolved on this world with hte same genetic code as every other creature here- and we are not advanced very far (beyond resolving disputes by seeing who has the most powerful weapons). But the question left by the author(s) of this hypothesis: How come we haven't heard from these guys -if they are out there at all? It is not as if they have to wait to hear from us at all. It should be only a matter of chance before they relatively quickly (however long before they check on Earth again) stumble on us- say a few thousand years? Why haven't we heard from them with our radio telescopes IF they are there, the skies should be filled with communications continuously. Proposed answers to this are that either they aren't out there- we are alone in the galaxy (it belongs to us, I guess) or for some reason this predominate advanced ET galactic civilization purposely avoids bothering us and avoids being detected easily. Maybe they haven't visited for awhile, or maybe they are evasive so far, or maybe we perform badly on their IQ tests, or flunk their moral or religious standards, or maybe we don't have acceptable government...? I sure would be embarrassing for them to say "Take us to your leaders." ;-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces From: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <1991Nov22.064403.2881@cs.mcgill.ca> Date: 22 Nov 91 06:44:03 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> <43473@mimsy.umd.edu> Sender: news@cs.mcgill.ca (Netnews Administrator) Organization: McGill University Lines: 114 In article <43473@mimsy.umd.edu> harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes: >In article <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: >>On the TV show, Unsolved Mysteries (November 20), they had a long report >>about UFO sightings in Belgium. >... >........................... Any (serious) ideas about the >>purpose of such activity? >\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > >I saw the show, but I'm not yet persuaded of anything yet by purported >evidence for UFOs being alien craft of some sort. But just supposing, >I think we might well assume that alien spacecraft are not manned by >biological lifeforms. They are too vulnerable . . . > >There are two means already known to us, never discussed much, by which >an advanced extraterrestial species could visit Earth. One is to physically >send robots. These could withstand great physical stress and require >far less energy for transportation than a biological species. . . . > >There is another very, very plausible way, besides this, that ET species >could 'visit' other worlds, very fast, without physically transporting >themselves or physical representatives. They can very simply transmit >"computer codes" along with designs for hardware (using pictures, diagrams, To try this kind of idea out in a non-physicalistic vein -- maybe they can transmit the *idea* of a spaceship, not with radio waves, but with thought waves. Practitioners of magick (not magic, i.e. fake magick) sometimes claim to be able to create "objects" through acts of will. I have never seen it done, but if it were possible, maybe aliens with advanced psychic/magickal ability could create thought-objects and control them from a distance. And like the witch with her "familiar" (cat), they could use the distant object to obtain information psychically. This kind of theory seems less plausible for ships that contain humanoid beings that *appear* to be biological. Do you think they are robots? Maybe that's why they all look more or less alike (or so it seems; I've never seen any!). And yet people who claim to have been abducted or had encounters often claim that the alien beings communicate with them telepathically, so the robots themselves would have to be telepathic! I have my doubts that a physical machine could have such ability. It is a puzzle that they can apparently violate physical "laws" (not that I take the hypothesised "laws" as of 1991 to be the *true* laws of the universe) and withstand tremendous G forces. Maybe their crafts have a way to counteract the G forces in some way. I'm grabbing at straws here. My poor monkey brain is at its wit's end trying to understand this stuff! > >I suppose that everyone reading this knows about a famous argument called >the "Zoo hypothesis" - made by an astronomer, I believe. It deserves to >straightforward assumptions - but the conclusion is that if there are >any advanced ET species in our galaxy, they are almost certainly far >advanced of us . . . >So we are infants among any advanced ET species. Furthermore, it is >argued that it is virtually certain that IF there is any such advanced >ET species, one or more would have almost certainly explored the >entire galaxy (many times according to the simple, very plausible >calculations) already before now, if the exploration was a diffusion, >as opposed as to seek and return (and why would a robot return immediately >anyway, especially if it could transmit information back "home.") > >They should have been here long ago (even before there were human beings). >Moreover, the galaxy should be filled with them - they should be inhabiting >every inhabitable world and constantly visitng everywhere else I suppose. > >Moreover, the argument goes - there should be a predominant ET culture, >as a matter of cultural and technological diffusion, which absorbs >everything. It should come to fill everywhere. > >At this point we have to ask, if our planet (which is really very much >rarer than Carl $. Sagan publicly claims) was visited before our time, >but when habitable- how come they didn't colonize our world? We clearly >evolved on this world with hte same genetic code as every other creature >here- and we are not advanced very far (beyond resolving disputes by >seeing who has the most powerful weapons). > Maybe that's why they didn't try to colonise our world; they knew we'd throw bombs at them! After reading about this hypothesis, I still don't understand why it's called the "zoo hypothesis." Is planet Earth a zoo that they visit in spaceships? Hmmm . . . Maybe we can sell them popcorn. >But the question left by the author(s) of this hypothesis: How come we >haven't heard from these guys -if they are out there at all? It is not >as if they have to wait to hear from us at all. It should be only a matter >of chance before they relatively quickly (however long before they check >on Earth again) stumble on us- say a few thousand years? Why haven't >we heard from them with our radio telescopes IF they are there, the >skies should be filled with communications continuously. > Maybe they are, but we can't decode them. It is very difficult to decode a foreign language -- in fact impossible unless we have something like the Rosetta stone that contains translations from a known natural language. Research by experimental psychologists has shown that a language can only be learned (in the absence of the possibility of translation from a known language) by exposure to sentence-situation pairs, so that the learner can decipher the meaning of a sentence from the events occurring in the situation and, with exposure to many such pairs, work out what the words mean and then how they fit together (syntax/grammar). There are dozens of studies showing this to be true. > >I sure would be embarrassing for them to say "Take us to your leaders." ;-) I'd introduce them to Frank Zappa. If they met our heads of state, they'd get a really bad impression of homo sapiens. And they'd think we all wore grey suits, white shirts, and ties. But then the "Nordic" aliens all dress like (at least on Earth TV documentaries). But those greys -- are they naked or what? -- Just wondering about wondrous things -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 21 Nov 91 04:24:43 GMT References: <1991Nov19.183625.5988@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1991Nov19.183625.5988@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> cwatters@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Coyt D Watters) writes: >While I was watching the morning news, our local NBC affiliate's (WCMH) >weatherman made an announcement about a near miss asteroid or cometary fragment >(he wan't sure which) which was supposed to occur around December 5th. >It is supposed to pass within 250k miles (close). > >Anyone out there have more info on this? It was discovered on November 6th and it's believed to be between 1 and 11 yards wide. (Don't ask me how they saw it!) It's either an entirely new class of Earth-crossing asteroids, or an upper stage from an Apollo rocket. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!convex!mic!texsun!csccat!ncmicro!ltf From: ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Lance Franklin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.angst Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <522@ncmicro.lonestar.org> Date: 21 Nov 91 14:22:46 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.195403.11913@utkux1.utk.edu> Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: NC Microproducts, Inc. Richardson, Tx Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3258 alt.paranormal:3743 alt.angst:2583 In article <1991Nov20.195403.11913@utkux1.utk.edu> kovarik@utkux1.utk.edu (SaintMeechTheChaste) writes: }In article <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken Primer) writes: }>zweig@cs.uiuc.edu (Johnny Zweig) writes: }> }>oi }> }>>>.. }>>> HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S }>>>SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? }>Oh No! I've got something important planned for July 14. Can't this wait? }>=:-0 }> } }On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM. Sorry, the world's entire supply of SPAM was destroyed a few years back when that soviet satellite with the nuclear reactor reentered the atmo- sphere. Luckily, the accident also created an equal amount of spam-like substance, which is what goes on the shelf as SPAM today. Ain't science wonderful? Lance "SPAM-LIKE" Franklin -- Lance T. Franklin +----------------------------------------------+ (ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org) | "You want I should bop you with this here | NC Microproducts, Inc. | Lollipop?!?" The Fat Fury | Richardson, Texas +----------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!seunet!kullmar!compuram!pgd From: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,misc.legal,alt.folklore.urban Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov22.072300.865@compuram.bbt.se> Date: 22 Nov 91 07:23:00 GMT References: <1991Nov21.172101.2537@Eyring.COM> Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17923 alt.paranormal:3745 alt.alien.visitors:3259 misc.legal:22634 alt.folklore.urban:28553 jd@Eyring.COM (James Perry) writes: : Much computing time is wasted by : countless copies of a useless and purposeless letter (IMHO). ..... : little if any regard for the rights of others on the net. In other words: : WASTED BANDWIDTH. The chain letter was not so bad as all the disussions about it. If you are against junk mail, why generate 10-100 times as much junk by discussing this chain letter. Why not just ignore it? -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!att!rutgers!psuvax1!psuvm!j5j From: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <91326.081638J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 13:16:38 GMT References: <1991Nov17.230604.20592@m.cs.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.183808.24752@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <1991Nov20.195403.11913@utkux1.utk.edu> <522@ncmicro.lonestar.org> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 32 In article <522@ncmicro.lonestar.org>, ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Lance Franklin) says: > >In article <1991Nov20.195403.11913@utkux1.utk.edu> kovarik@utkux1.utk.edu >(SaintMeechTheChaste) writes: >} [the asteroid] >}On the other hand, it will destroy the world's entire supply of SPAM. > >Sorry, the world's entire supply of SPAM was destroyed a few years back >when that soviet satellite with the nuclear reactor reentered the atmo- >sphere. This is not quite accurate. My father-in-law has been keeping a can of SPAM(tm) in the trunk of his car since 1981 "just in case he got hungry for it on a camping trip or something." I am not making this up. Personally, I can't wait for the asteroid to get here. >Lance T. Franklin +----------------------------------------------+ >(ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org) | "You want I should bop you with this here | >NC Microproducts, Inc. | Lollipop?!?" The Fat Fury | >Richardson, Texas +----------------------------------------------+ Anybody selling any back issues of Herbie? ----------------------------------- John A. Johnson (J5J@psuvm.psu.edu) Department of Psychology Penn State DuBois Campus 15801 Penn State is not responsible for my behavior. "A ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort. Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life." - from _Lila_ by R. Pirsig Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai From: jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jock of the Bushveld) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov22.145825.14216@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 14:58:25 GMT References: <1991Nov19.230839.4276@ctr.columbia.edu> <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> <1991Nov21.191132.21178@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 39 In article <1991Nov21.191132.21178@watdragon.waterloo.edu> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: >In article <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) writes: >>twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) writes: >> >>|>anyway, here is the gist of two people struck by meteorites in >>|>the 20th century. > > deleted >> >>These are meteorites. >> >>Asteroids are large chunks of rock, metal or carbon compunds. >> >>They range in size from very small to hundreds of miles in diameter. > > Hmmm. I wonder what the technical term for a small asteroid >passing through the atmosphere or the term used to label it after it >impacts the ground is? I wonder where the litlle bits of rock we >call meteorites come from? Tell me, what is the most likely source >for proto-meteor(ite) material? > > James Nicoll Well, it seems that asteroids are small 'planets' up to 500 miles in diameter that orbit around our solar system. A meteorite appears to be defined as follows: a small particle of matter that is only observable when it falls into the earth's atmosphere, where friction may cause a temporary incandescence. So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite (but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical term is 'rock'. You are right. Where do they come from? Probably space. ;-) J. -- |\^/| // jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu ._|\| |/|_. // \ Canada / // <____ ____> // Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai From: jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jock of the Bushveld) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov22.152251.16507@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 15:22:51 GMT References: <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1991Nov21.202406.2955@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 53 In article <1991Nov21.202406.2955@vax.oxford.ac.uk> ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: >In article <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: >> >> all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid >> HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance >> in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every >> seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during >> any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000. >> > >So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years, >or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped >out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller >asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population . > >Ian I'm no statistician, but let's see what happens: P(asteroid hits Earth in a given 70 year period)= 1/10000 Therefore, P(no asteroid hits Earth in a 70 year period) = 1-1/10000=9999/10000 For 700,000 years, we would have 10,000 70-year periods (surprise, surprise). Since asteroids either hit or don't hit the earth in a 70 year period, we can use the binomial distribution to calculate the probability: P(no asteroids hit the Earth in 700,000 years)= 0 10000 ( 10000 ) ( 1 ) ( 9999 ) ( ) (--------) ( ------) ( 0 ) ( 10000 ) ( 10000 ) = 1 * (1) (.367861046433...) = 0.367861046433 So, P(at least one asteroid will hit the Earth in 700,000 years) = 1-.367861046 433 = 0.632138953567 , and not 1 as intuitively believed. Of course, are the assumptions correct? I can't say. But it does seem plausible, given that asteroids could be the size of dust particles, as long as they orbit the solar system. The better question is: 'yes, ok fine, but who cares?' Inquiring minds want to know! only have to -- |\^/| // jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu ._|\| |/|_. // \ Canada / // <____ ____> // Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!tmr110 From: TMR110@psuvm.psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gulfbreeze files - Introduction Message-ID: <91326.104455TMR110@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 15:44:55 GMT References: <1991Nov16.193450.10590@bilver.uucp> <2595@tuegate.tue.nl> <1991Nov19.094307.4034@bilver.uucp> Organization: HAM - Hackers Against MUDs Lines: 95 X-Subliminal-Message: IBM/370 assembler is your friend. In article <1991Nov19.094307.4034@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) says: > There are many allegations involving our wonderful military-industrial >complex,MJ-12 with coverup activities involving so-called pacts >with aliens at Roswell,Area 51,Dulce,etc. >These are questions that would suggest conspiracy of the highest sorts >with the "secret Govt" and ET's.. I don't know of these allegations. Perhaps you can send me some info by E-mail so I can judge them for myself. >How can one ask questions about the Illuminati, Bo Gritz story,BCCI >S&L loan failure, AIDS coverup and not see that these things may be >related, even in the very TOP part of "who is the secret govt". Illuminati, Bo Gritz, BCCI....I really don't know about these. S&L failure, simple, the U.S. Gov't has borrowed considerable amounts of money from lenders. The lenders get their money from people who are saving it up. The problem occurs when a lot of people need to dig into their savings all at once (like in a recession), but the money isn't there because it has all been lent out. Also, U.S. businesses don't have the borrowing power they need to expand, because too much is tied up in the Gov't debt. What AIDS coverup? >Answer the question about "who is in control", "who are the members >of the Illuminati" and you have a connection to who MJ-12 is and >what their function might be. "who is in control?"...in control of what?..our country...I don't think any ONE person is anymore. It will take a LOT of collective effort to get his country out of the mess it is in now. "who are the members of the Illuminati?"....I give...who are they? Sorry, these two questions don't lead me to believe in something called "MJ-12" and a presumed function for it. >One wonders what you will do when the economy is finally dashed >to the ground by the secret govt (it's almost there) and your >dollar is rendered worthless and the Tri-Lats come out with >a "rescue" plan of a global credit system. You will be the first >to get marked. Star wars? SDI...you fell for it..it's a LIE. SDI...Star wars...I didn't fall for anything. I've been voting non-Republican for a while now because I think they are too self-centered (oh boy, I just said a doosey) Why is a "secret gov't" the reason for all of this? I'm sure you have *proof*, but I really don't apply much credit to the National Enquirer. When the economy crashes, I don't know. That is hardly something to plan for, but I tend to think that I'll figure out something when I get there. I agree it will crash though, but I do not think it is some secrect Gov't. Isn't is just as valid to assume that our gov't is greedy. Think about it, during a recession our senators voted themselves a $25 grand a year payraise, bringing their total pay to over $125 grand a year. How many friends of yours make this much money??? All I can see, is that for the past..almost 12 years the gov't (mainly rep.) have been running a huge deficit, which in turn, boosts the economy (the most effective way to boost an economy is to run a deficit, thereby creating excess cash flow). This great economy soars republican image and they stay in the white house for a LONG time, unfortunately, all good things must come to an end, especially when 1/4 of our budget is going towards INTEREST on our debt. Now, when the S&L is collapsing, American business is sold to the Japanese ( which is probably the fault of american managment), and we are attempting to pay back this huge deficit (the most effective way to slow down an economy is to run a profit, hence removing cash flow) then there is no doubt that our economy is in deep doo-doo. So now, when things are starting to get ruff, the american people will start to vote for democrats, like they always do, but the democrats probably wont be able to do anything with this mess we are in. I don't think we are screwed by a "secret gov't", but rather we screwed ourselves. No one listened 10 years ago when economists warned about an increasing deficit...the economy was good, so everyone just said, keep it up Regan, keep it up Bush. Now when things are going sour, the republicans are being abandoned. >The Beast in Brussels knows all about you. Can you say 0110 0110 0110? > >This is your wakeup call pal...hear it well..many won't. When the >paper currency falls is the emminent return of Nemesis. HUH? >Then where will you run to? GAIA? I don't know. Maybe Japan will bail us out, since we did the same for them 50 years ago, besides they own most of the U.S. anyway... >Don ----SLEDGE Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <6193@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 16:34:06 GMT References: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17926 alt.paranormal:3746 alt.alien.visitors:3264 talk.religion.newage:7783 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net! I'm sick and tired of it! That's why users aren't allowed to distribute chain letters! Because Jim is sick and tired of it. That solved MY dilemma! -brent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!case From: case@infonode.ingr.com (Bill Case) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Summary: lights Message-ID: <1991Nov22.165542.23657@infonode.ingr.com> Date: 22 Nov 91 16:55:42 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL. Lines: 9 In article <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca>, pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: > To hover for so long with so many human witnesses seems sort of > exhibitionistic. Yeah. How come they always come looking like my neighbor's gaudy house at Christmas time? If I was in the "snoop around alien worlds at night" biz, I would assume my ""Guide to Snooping" manual would list "Turn off the #&*&# lights" as a tenderfoot procedure. Guess it's the motor. Let's sell them the B2! Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov22.181434.24798@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Date: 22 Nov 91 18:14:34 GMT References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 29 In article <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: > > Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit >Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus, >all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid >HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance >in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every >seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during >any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000. > Most asteroids are small (Really small, if you count the dust which is responsible for zodiacal light and gegenschein. Those particles are about 10**(-8) kg each). Incoming asteroids won't be going much faster than 70 km/s tops, which means a 1 kg rock (which is large for objects encountering the Earth; most infall is dust-sized) would have an Ek equal to about 580 kg of TNT. Dust will have an Ek of, at best, 5.8 milligrams of TNT. Most of the Ek will therefore be expended as heat caused by friction with the upper atmosphere. Earth gets hits with many, many 'asteroids' per days. The yearly rate is thousands of tons. Most of these cause no more effect than pretty lights at night. A one klick rock might hit with an Ek equal to about 280 megatons, which would Real Bad News for a lot of people, but rocks that large are rare. Note that the Tunguska incident was a few megatons, but few people died, since it landed in a sparsely occupied section of the Earth. James Nicoll Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!ames!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!dowling From: dowling@umiacs.umd.edu (Race Dowling) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <43536@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 23 Nov 91 02:46:48 GMT References: <50536@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17941 alt.alien.visitors:3267 In article <50536@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >FYI >This is being posted for John Winston. As some of you may remember, John >was told he could not post from his work place. So I have offered him net >access through my account. I do not censor what he posts. And I have advised >him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he >wants to keep cross posting, so what can I do? So look at it this way, at >least I run his posts through a spell checker. :-) >Don Showen I hope that you are also sending him copies of our responses. If not, it is unfair to post his opinions. -- Save network bandwith - be lazy. -Race D. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm From: jbm@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Twelth Planet Message-ID: <1991Nov23.030326.24373@trl.oz.au> Date: 23 Nov 91 03:03:26 GMT References: <91324.124049JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 20 JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >Has anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's "The Twelth Planet"?? It deals with the >translations of ancient Sumerian text. There is extraterrestrial seeding and >verification of Biblical stories, such as Adam and Eve and the Great Flood >with some interesting twists. >Please post all comments. Yes, I have. But that's no reference, you know. Why, I've even read the Book of Mormon, the Book of Urantia, the Necronomicon, and... The gist of it, if I remember (it's somewhere on my shelves at home, not here) is that humans were bio-engineered by the inhabitants of that twelfth planet, which is on a very eccentric orbit around the Sun, and gets close every 20,000 years or so. But don't believe me, read the book. It's a good read. It's the author tiff with his teachers in school about nephilim (which they translated by "giants") meaning literally "the fallen" that started him on that track. Yes, that's right, it says here "fall, vi. naphal.... fall, n. nephilah" (Bantam-` Megiddo Hebrew dictionary). Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!ames!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!pyrnj!pyramid!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Date: 22 Nov 91 23:49:54 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 91 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5205 alt.alien.visitors:3269 sci.physics:14855 sci.skeptic:17950 Just a recap of the original posting before summarizing the feedback I've received so far. I'll also ask for your opinion on what the newsgroup name should be. In article Jon Noring (noring@netcom.COM) writes: > >I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss >alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will >be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully >in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. I believe that it >should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science. >Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group >can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group. > > >A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) > >... [some text deleted (see the original posting)] ... > >A small list of...things that could be discussed include: > >* What is gravity? What about Sakharov's conjecture? Is anti-gravity > possible? >* How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations > that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications > to our understanding of the universe. >* Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of > papers submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility, > including some experimental evidence (which I admit is meager). Some of > these papers discussed alternative theories of physics). Obviously truly > fringe, but discussable in this newsgroup. >* Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in > space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the > time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ). >* Is time travel possible? >* Cold fusion theories. >etc. > >Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup, >the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked >about. If nothing else, it should be very interesting: the proponents >can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have >a good laugh! > END OF RECAP So far the response has been very favorable. I have had eight people support the creation of the group (for very different reasons). None have yet come forward to oppose its creation. Even the most skeptical of the responders believed the group should be formed just so they can "kick the kooks out" (as they called them) from sci.physics. One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to create this newsgroup is its name. The names that have been bandied about: alt.physics alt.physics.unconventional alt.science alt.science.physics alt.science.unconventional alt.science.physics.unconventional alt.physics.new-theories alt.physics alt.sci-eng.unconventional Some comment on the above names. The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word 'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy. Is there a better word? Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics' so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry. This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics). One poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself) should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics. How about this? I look forward to your response. Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (415) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (415) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 07:21:52 GMT References: <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> <1991Nov21.191132.21178@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov22.145825.14216@descartes.waterloo.edu> Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 18 In article <1991Nov22.145825.14216@descartes.waterloo.edu> jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jock of the Bushveld) writes: > >So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite >(but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical >term is 'rock'. You are right. Where do they come from? Probably space. ;-) Actually, they're only meteorites AFTER they hit the ground. They're meteors in the air, meteoroids in space. I know of no difference between a meteoroid and an asteroid except size... -- K. -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken!taco!ncsuvm!oduvm!blh100s From: BLH100S%ODUVM.BITNET@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Becky Hudgins) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: <91325.083758BLH100S@ODUVM.BITNET> Date: 21 Nov 91 13:37:58 GMT References: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz> Organization: Old Dominion University Computer Services Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17951 alt.alien.visitors:3271 In article <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz>, john@anasaz (John Moore) says: > >]> As a graduate student in computer science (therefore an engineer) >] >]How does being a graduate student in _computer_science_ make you an >]engineer??? I've got it--neither Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!pbhya!whheydt From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Venus Part 2 Message-ID: <1991Nov22.211945.17707@pbhya.PacBell.COM> Date: 22 Nov 91 21:19:45 GMT References: <50536@cup.portal.com> Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17953 alt.alien.visitors:3272 In article <50536@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >FYI >This is being posted for John Winston. >As some of you may remember, John >was told he could not post from his work place. >So I have offered him net >access through my account. >I do not censor what he posts. >And I have advised >him that his posts tend to rattle the skeptics in their belief cages but he >wants to keep cross posting, >so what can I do? For one--you could try thinking about what *you* write. (After all--if you think he shouldn't cross post--why are you doing it for him? If you protest that you're letting him post form your account, then *you* become accountable for what you perceive as poor behavior. You might consider having him *mauil* the data to you with a request about what groups it belongs in and then overriding those wishes when you actually post.) --Hal -- ======================================================================= Hal Heydt | David Duke is to Patrick Buchannan Analyst, Pacific*Bell | as 510-823-5447 | Dan Quayle is to George Bush. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!ux.acs.umn.edu!csn0441 From: csn0441@ux.acs.umn.edu (Csn0441) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <5283@ux.acs.umn.edu> Date: 23 Nov 91 09:45:21 GMT References: <1991Nov20.114125.21248@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> <1991Nov21.191132.21178@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <1991Nov22.145825.14216@descartes.waterloo.edu> Organization: University of Minnesota, Academic Computing Services Lines: 14 In article <1991Nov22.145825.14216@descartes.waterloo.edu> jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jock of the Bushveld) writes: > >So, a small asteroid passing through the atmosphere may be called a meteorite >(but call it what you like!). After it hits the ground, the correct technical >term is 'rock'. You are right. Where do they come from? Probably space. ;-) For the record, I believe a meteoroid is still in space, a meteor is in the atmosphere, and a meteorite has struck the ground. An asteroid, I believe, is just one of the big meteoroids or planetoids that resides between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. The name asteroid seems to also apply to bodies that are believed to have once occupied that region, only to be knocked out of orbit. Some astronomers probably can give a more precise description. Greg Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eos.ncsu.edu!twcarver From: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov23.152256.6938@ctr.columbia.edu> Date: 23 Nov 91 15:22:56 GMT References: <1991Nov17.051526.27189@anasaz> <1991Nov17.173054.14628@ctr.columbia.edu> <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu> <1991Nov21.202406.2955@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Sender: usenet@ctr.columbia.edu (The Daily Lose) Reply-To: twcarver@eos.ncsu.edu (TRACY WARREN CARVER) Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University Lines: 40 >In article <198991@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes: >> >> Nope. Lemme try putting it this way. If an asteroid were to hit >> Earth, the chances are that most people end up dead because of it. Thus, >> all you have to do is figure out what the chances are of an asteroid >> HITTING within your lifetime... and that comes out to about one chance >> in ten thousand -- i.e., an asteroid is likely to hit Earth once every >> seven hundred thousand years or so, so its chances of hitting during >> any given 70-year span are 1 in 10,000. >> > >So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years, >or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped >out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller >asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population . > >Ian Ian, I hate to tell you this, but we already had this exact same discussion! Don't bring it up again! You'll get a zillion posts criticizing your mathematical abilities! Well, to be fair, that isn't quite true -- but my previous posts on "expected value" generated a slew of posts, and about 4 or 5 different ways of coming up with a 1 in 10000 figure. Big sense of deja vu if it happens again. Tracy >>So on average, the geological record shows that roughly every 700,000 years, >>or so, all life the size of a human (or presumably larger) has been wiped >>out by an asteroid strike? That's not counting, of course, all the smaller >>asteroids that only wiped out half, or a quarter of the relevant population . >> >>Ian Ian, I hate to tell you this....huh? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!ogicse!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Summary: alt.physics - YES! Message-ID: <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> Date: 23 Nov 91 23:00:46 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE WA. Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3275 sci.physics:14864 sci.skeptic:17954 alt.config:5209 In article , fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes: > > There is even flaming in sci.physics, alt.physics will be much worse, > still I think you should do it, it would be interesting. I've posted in some of the sci groups "alternative" theories and they are always met with flames, which I wouldn't mind so much if those flames were based on physical evidence, but generally they're based on the fact that I've violated someones scientific religion. There seem to be a lot of people in the "Sci" groups that consider legitimate science to automatically exclude any evidence that contradicts established theory. For that reason I think the creation of alt.physics with the idea that discussions can be open ended, and that one can even discuss things that contradict established scientific dogma. I would like to see maybe a hiarchy, more like: alt.science.physics alt.science.cosmology (etc) So that as other scientific topics come up they could be accomodated, rather than limiting the discussion to only physics. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 23:29:58 GMT References: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5210 alt.alien.visitors:3276 sci.physics:14866 sci.skeptic:17958 Well, I think the main reason you won't see any of us skeptics objecting to such a news group is this; how could anyone really want to keep others from exchanging ideas? Still, a little further distinction between mainstream physics and what might properly be considered 'fringe' physics on the Net isn't a bad idea. Probably the best name for the newsgroup would be alt.physics.fringe, because a) 'fringe' is a nice short word, and b) it's relatively unjudgemental or self-important. However, it's probably going to be a pretty wide-ranging topic-- you'll probably have everyone from UFO fans talking about propulsion systems, psychic fans talking about either quantum physics, New Agers chatting about 'vibrational frequencies...' and that's the outer edge of things. Actually, you may want to try it as a mailing list. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces From: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <1991Nov24.041034.24064@cs.mcgill.ca> Date: 24 Nov 91 04:10:34 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> <1991Nov22.173146.27651@javelin.sim.es.com> Sender: news@cs.mcgill.ca (Netnews Administrator) Organization: McGill University Lines: 16 In article <1991Nov22.173146.27651@javelin.sim.es.com> KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) writes: >In <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca writes: > >> A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990. >> (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.) >> This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of >> it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping >> mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember > > Doesn't it seem that if this event had really happened as described here >there would be dozens of video tapes of it? Wouldn't someone have called the >local news stations? Did everyone in Montreal just assume that someone else >was taking a picture? There was a photograph in the newspaper. Odd that you should assume there were no photos taken. Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <1991Nov22.173146.27651@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 22 Nov 91 17:31:46 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 12 In-Reply-To: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca's message of 21 Nov 91 04:18:57 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus.sim.es.com X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca writes: > A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990. > (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.) > This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of > it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping > mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember Doesn't it seem that if this event had really happened as described here there would be dozens of video tapes of it? Wouldn't someone have called the local news stations? Did everyone in Montreal just assume that someone else was taking a picture? Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: Date: 24 Nov 91 01:53:03 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3279 alt.config:5212 In-Reply-To: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> I cut out the sci groups from the header so no one there gets upset. I say alt.physics or alt.science physics should the name. If it is in alt, unconventional is usually redundant, in this case especially so since there exists a sci.physics. Unconventional is also unwieldy to have in the name. The names with new-theories and sci-eng are too restrictive and unwieldy. Good luck, we all need a group for free discussion of physics and physics related things free from the restrictions of the sci hierarchy. Alt.physics or alt.science.physics (I really can't decide which of the two is better) is an idea whose time has come. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <90966.292E1CF6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 23 Nov 91 02:05:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 21 In a message to All <21 Nov 91 12:09> Jon Noring wrote: JN> Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup, JN> the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked JN> about. If nothing else, it should be very interesting: the proponents JN> can have a forum to introduce their new JN> theories, and the skeptics can have JN> a good laugh! Hi Jon. I'm very much in favor of alt.physics as you propose it! Fido & PODnet Alt. Tech echos are very slow, and my BBS's private Alt Tech area is moribund, too. This is certainly the forum for it, and I would expect lively, high-level interest. Best, Clark PS -- BTW, what do you think about the Herzfeld equations? -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsh!wcs From: wcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: <1991Nov25.035800.4895@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Date: 25 Nov 91 03:58:00 GMT References: <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <8d_3cYW00aw4E=cUQQ@andrew.cmu.edu> <1991Nov19.180258.3045@asihub.sd.cadence.com> Organization: Bush and Noriega - a CRACK Team! Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3759 alt.alien.visitors:3281 talk.religion.newage:7799 sci.skeptic:17960 In article <1991Nov19.180258.3045@asihub.sd.cadence.com> chuck@asihub.sd.cadence.com writes: ]Raoul Ortega, of Venezuala, sent a chain letter over e-mail ]and contracted an inflamed colon within two hours. Loretta ]Donnely, of Newhurst, New Jersey, didn't send any, and ]received $1,200,333 three days later. Hey! There's a Loretta Donnelly who works here in my building! It must be her! If *I* don't send the chain letter, maybe she'll give *me* some of the money! There's another chain letter around that starts out like the usual ones, but eventually gets down to events like "Oliver North *shredded* the letter instead of passing it on, and lost his job. He later found another copy, Xerographed it, and is now making $big$ $bucks$ on teh lecture circuit. anybody have a copy? Perhaps by ABSORBING chain letters instead of MAILING them out, I'[ll get even more good luck? Bill -- Pray for peace; Bill #Bill Stewart +1-908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ # CIA has "always aspired to be more than a team, to be a family" - Robert Gates # "Big Brother is Watching" - George Orwell Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: Date: 25 Nov 91 04:36:04 GMT References: Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3282 alt.paranormal:3760 In article some weenie wrote: >. > HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THE ASTEROID THAT'S >SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE EARTH ON JULY 13 1992 ????? It's amazing how large a tree of followups can be generated from one dopey li'l posting like that, isn't it? -- K. -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 23:23:01 GMT References: <1991Nov21.041857.2243@cs.mcgill.ca> <43473@mimsy.umd.edu> <1991Nov22.064403.2881@cs.mcgill.ca> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 26 In article <1991Nov22.064403.2881@cs.mcgill.ca> pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) writes: > >To try this kind of idea out in a non-physicalistic vein -- maybe they >can transmit the *idea* of a spaceship, not with radio waves, but >with thought waves. Practitioners of magick (not magic, i.e. fake magick) >sometimes claim to be able to create "objects" through acts of will. >I have never seen it done, but if it were possible, maybe aliens with >advanced psychic/magickal ability could create thought-objects and >control them from a distance. And like the witch with her "familiar" >(cat), they could use the distant object to obtain information >psychically. The magickal theory is better than the robotic theory as long as there's no non-psychic way to communicate instantly (or at least faster than light.) I haven't seen proof of anything, but I've heard ideas. (See, for example, the April 1986 issue of Radio-Electronics, and the letter column of the August issue; also "The Philadelphia Experiment" by Moore and Berlitz, in which the authors say they've seen a classified government report on gravity wave generation. Unfortunately I haven't heard any follow-up on either of these sources.) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Any Idea What This Is? Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 23:32:59 GMT References: <1991Nov16.221914.11429@uwm.edu> <1991Nov18.152159.8035@wam.umd.edu> <6193@tamsun.tamu.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17964 alt.paranormal:3762 alt.alien.visitors:3284 talk.religion.newage:7800 In article <6193@tamsun.tamu.edu> n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) writes: >jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >>Don't EVER circulate chain letters on the net! I'm sick and tired of it! > >That's why users aren't allowed to distribute chain letters! Because >Jim is sick and tired of it. > >That solved MY dilemma! OK, I admit to posting when I was in a bad mood. But hey, I figure, if I'm going to read garbage on the net, it should at least be *entertaining* garbage. Chain letters ceased to be entertaining a long time ago. Like after the first one. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!sun4nl!dutrun!dutrun2!dmesatr From: dmesatr@dutrun2.tudelft.nl (Arthur van der Harg) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: <6257@dutrun2.tudelft.nl> Date: 24 Nov 91 15:17:17 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Followup-To: alt.config Organization: Computing Centre of the Technical University of Delft The Netherlands. Lines: 52 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5220 alt.alien.visitors:3285 sci.physics:14871 sci.skeptic:17965 In article <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: [...] "One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to "create this newsgroup is its name. The names that have been bandied about: " "alt.physics "alt.physics.unconventional "alt.science "alt.science.physics "alt.science.unconventional "alt.science.physics.unconventional "alt.physics.new-theories "alt.physics "alt.sci-eng.unconventional " "Some comment on the above names. The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed "to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word "'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy. Is there a better "word? How about "non-std"? Then it could include non-standard theories, as well as non-standard results or interpretations of standard theories. "Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics' "so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry. "This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics). But it would make the name too long. Then alt.sci.physics.non-std would be my favourite. Or why not sci.physics.non-std? "One "poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself) "should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics. How "about this? "Jon Noring Agreed. If people want to do this, they should start a "alt.religion.physics/science" newsgroup, with occasional cross-posting to "our" new newsgroup. The reason for this is that I expect religious science discussions to be more concerned about the religious part than about the science part. Inclusion in the charter should be just fine, though. Arthur -- Getting tired of children? Ever considered youthanasia? Arthur.vanderHarg@dimes.tudelft.nl Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: Date: 24 Nov 91 18:30:23 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 42 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5221 alt.alien.visitors:3286 sci.physics:14875 sci.skeptic:17971 In article <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >One area that still needs discussion before I request the powers to be to >create this newsgroup is its name. The names that have been bandied about: [list deleted] >Some comment on the above names. The alt.physics.unconventional was deemed >to state best what this newsgroup would be all about, but the word >'unconventional' was felt to be a little too unwieldy. Is there a better >word? Also, some responders felt that 'science' would be better than 'physics' >so it could include discussion of theories in other fields such as chemistry. I'd suggest "alt.science.{something}" so it could branch out a little. The names I usually hear attached to various phenomena are "alternative technology" and "fringe science". Maybe "alt.science.fringe"? >This would also make it more hierarchical (e.g., alt.science.physics). One >poster made it plain that the newsgroup charter (and maybe the name itself) >should discourage discussion of creationism and other religious topics. How >about this? I would DEFINITELY like to see religious wars banned from the group. Otherwise we won't be able to discuss anything else! I stopped reading sci.skeptic nearly a year ago because some bozos kept cross-posting flames on the acceptability of the Bible as evidence to that group. It had started as a Creationism discussion, but people didn't have the brains to move it elsewhere when it became an all-out religious war. (For me it's not a matter of kill files. This is a private node, and I pay long-distance charges for the very few newsgroups I get.) There might be an *occasional* crossover, though. For example, the Creationist theory that the speed of light is decreasing. It might also be useful to define a difference between religion and mysticism. My definition of a religion is anything which involves dogma. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!watop!north From: north@watop.nosc.mil (Mark North) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 23:26:42 GMT References: <1991Nov19.142857.21557@anasaz> Sender: nobody@nosc.NOSC.MIL Lines: 35 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17972 alt.alien.visitors:3287 john@anasaz (John Moore) writes: >I strongly beg to differ with you. One who practices computer science >is practicing engineering. I have done electrical engineering, and >I have done software engineering. They are very similar disciplines: I strongly beg to differ with your begging. > -they are based on mathematical theory, but that theory is usually > somewhat incomplete in its practical predictive powers No shit. You're refering to counting, right 8^)? > -they involve using that theory, plus experience, to create things > which are useful to people Yes, but you're talking the difference between sliced bread (a great engineering feat) and Windows, right? > -they are professions, and have similar pay We all lose on that one with basketball players getting $9.5M/yr 8^(. > -they involve creating and meeting specifications Can two people equal one engineer? My lady friend creates specifications and I have to meet them. Does that count? Oh, you were talking about computer science. Sorry. >This has NOTHING to do with alt.alien.visitors Au Contraire Mark Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!watop!north From: north@watop.nosc.mil (Mark North) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter and his UFO sighting Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 91 23:46:18 GMT References: <1991Nov15.195218.24390noring@netcom.COM> <822@savage.UUCP> Sender: nobody@nosc.NOSC.MIL Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:17973 alt.alien.visitors:3288 zap@savage.UUCP (Zap Savage) writes: >Yeah, but this is the guy who worked on nuclear submarines and couldn't >pronounce the word "nuclear"! It came out something like nucular. Watch out! You're gonna piss off a lot of good buddies with comments like this. "In spite of the decline of the Warsaw Pact we must maintain a portion of our nucular deterent" -- Dick Cheney (SECDEF) Mark Nucular Phsikist Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!harryo From: harryo@cbnewse.cb.att.com (harold.r.holm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFOs in Belgium Keywords: any books yet? Message-ID: <1991Nov25.082556.9763@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Date: 25 Nov 91 08:25:56 GMT Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 12 I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was fascinating. I'd say the evidence points to something happening. Does anyone know of any books published to date specifically on this Belgian UFO controversy, and widely available in the U.S.? I haven't noted anything on the bookstore shelves yet...... H.R. Holm *comments my own, standard disclaimers,etc. Please post replies to the group, not by e-mail* Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov24.143952.21482@bilver.uucp> Date: 24 Nov 91 14:39:52 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3290 alt.conspiracy:8883 sci.skeptic:17977 In article <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) writes: >In article <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >>The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. >> >> STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION >> by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991. >> >> On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile >>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a >>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze. >> The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that >>way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their >>direction. They detected no sound from the object. >> Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a >>brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes >>and there were nine additional witnesses. > >This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west. >Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when >they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws... For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume that it was a planet. Read the description again. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: GIF: Gulfbreeze - ED Walters UFO part 1 Message-ID: <1991Nov24.150156.21683@bilver.uucp> Date: 24 Nov 91 15:01:56 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1019 This is a GIF of the craft that Ed Walters took his photos of. 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end ---cut here-------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante From: grante@aquarius.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov24.182046.17215@rosevax.rosemount.com> Date: 24 Nov 91 18:20:46 GMT References: <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> Sender: news@rosevax.rosemount.com (USENET News administrator) Organization: Rosemount, Inc. Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3294 sci.physics:14877 sci.skeptic:17978 alt.config:5222 Originator: grante@aquarius Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius Since when do you need a Call For Discussion to create an alt group? Did I missed out on some rule change? Did I miss the CFD on the creation of alt.stupid.putz.putz.putz? -- Grant Edwards |Yow! Hmmm... an arrogant Rosemount Inc. |bouquet with a subtle |suggestion of POLYVINYL grante@aquarius.rosemount.com |CHLORIDE... Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!dww From: dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <5166@stl.co.uk> Date: 24 Nov 91 23:30:13 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@bnr.co.uk Reply-To: dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright) Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5223 alt.alien.visitors:3295 sci.physics:14881 sci.skeptic:17988 In the referenced article noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: #I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss #alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will #be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully #in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic. What's wrong with using that? Of course if the level of specifically physics issues in that group grow to the point where they need their own group then you'll have a good case for a mainstream group sci.skeptic.physics or some such. Regards, "None shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity" David Wright BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, Essex CM17 9NA, UK dww@bnr.co.uk ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!stl!dww PSI%234237100122::DWW Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!rodger From: rodger@ac.dal.ca Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: DOWN 18 Message-ID: <1991Nov24.201519.2180@ac.dal.ca> Date: 25 Nov 91 00:15:19 GMT Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Lines: 17 We're looking for some videos on UFO's. So far we've seen: 1. A Cosmos film which tried to debunk all known sitings 2. One hosted by William Shatner which was mostly Eric von Dannikan type information about visits in the past. 3. SETI, which was about the search for alien intelligence using radio transmissions 4. UFO's Are Real, which had some great stills and film footage. This one was the most pro-UFO one we've seen. 5. Communion, which was a Hollywood type version of Whitley Streiber's book of the same name. If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to search for. We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience". We haven't been able to find this one yet. Thanks Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty From: dusty@abode.ttank.com (Dusty Garza) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: SOMETHING HUGE! Message-ID: <1991Nov25.093834.549@abode.ttank.com> Date: 25 Nov 91 09:38:34 GMT Distribution: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Abode Computer Services Lines: 22 Dear fellow UFOlogists: I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month: SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE. SOMETHING THAT WILL UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. Let's hope so... Once and for all... Eventhough I wasn't told any more, I was told this by a UFO Insider. That's ALL I KNOW! Still, I thought it exciting enough news to share with all of you! Take Care! --Dusty in L.A. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ASTEROID TO DESTROY EARTH Message-ID: <1991Nov25.034351.20717@uwm.edu> Date: 25 Nov 91 03:43:51 GMT References: <1991Nov19.183625.5988@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 4 If anyone wants real information on this Earth grazer, just check out sci.astro. The name of the object is 1991vg. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!uupsi!tygra!dave From: dave@tygra.Michigan.COM (David Conrad) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov25.082442.25959@tygra.Michigan.COM> Date: 25 Nov 91 08:24:42 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing System, Detroit, MI Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5226 alt.alien.visitors:3299 sci.physics:14893 sci.skeptic:18003 In article <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss >alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will >be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully >in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. I believe that it >should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science. >Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group >can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group. > >A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) > >Anyway, let me know what you feel about the creation of the newsgroup, >the proposed name of alt.physics, and what other subjects could be talked >about. If nothing else, it should be very interesting: the proponents >can have a forum to introduce their new theories, and the skeptics can have >a good laugh! > >Jon Noring I can't think of any reason why this discussion couldn't take place in sci.physics, sci.physics.fusion, sci.skeptic and alt.alien.visitors, as the subject dictates. If serious theories are going to be proposed, I can see no reason why they shouldn't be examined by the experts in the first three groups. If crackpot discussions without criticism are desired, I think they can be found in the latter. 'Nuff said. -- David R. Conrad | TELEBIT, DIGIBOARD, ADAPTEC, DPT, WESTERN Sales Department | DIGITAL, ISC UNIX, MICROPOLIS Michigan Network Systems | Phone: 800-827-6349. Fax: 313-343-2928 dave@Michigan.COM | T2500: $632 T3000: $610 T1600: $475 Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!tulane!ukma!nsisrv!mimsy!harwood From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Keywords: any books yet? Message-ID: <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 25 Nov 91 17:10:40 GMT References: <1991Nov25.082556.9763@cbnewse.cb.att.com> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Distribution: na Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Lines: 13 In article <1991Nov25.082556.9763@cbnewse.cb.att.com> harryo@cbnewse.cb.att.com (harold.r.holm) writes: >I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was >fascinating. I'd say the evidence points to something happening. > \\\\\\\\\ As I said before, I'm still skeptical, but what was surprising to me was the apparent cooperation of the Belgium air force authorities. (Who knows what NATO thinks about this?) [vis a vis the official US air force reponse to intercepts over SAC bases reported years ago]. By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical UFO? More fun ;-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!degnans From: degnans@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Santa Claus) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Final warning - X the bodydigger Summary: mail by the 29th Keywords: coffee fanclub Message-ID: <1991Nov25.154728.1062@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> Date: 25 Nov 91 15:47:28 GMT Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept. Lines: 25 To remind you: X the bodydigger can be reached at the following address: irelanda@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs Please mail him the following message by Friday 29th November: 'Have a good Saturday chunky!' Failure to mail at least 300 messages to this location will result in general mayhem, initially in the Glasgow vicinity, then spreading to Scotland, the UK, Western Europe and finally rural Belgium. For more information send mail to Santa Claus, the watcher at: degnans@uk.ac.glasgow.dcs All enquiries will be responded to quickly and confidentially. This is no joke - this is real life. Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd From: schiffd@cs.Colorado.EDU (David M. Schiff) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Nat'l Geo. Special Message-ID: <1991Nov25.221340.19003@colorado.edu> Date: 25 Nov 91 22:13:40 GMT Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Distribution: na Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder, Department of Computer Science Lines: 2 Originator: schiffd@tigger Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu Does anyone have any comments regarding the special shown last night? I don't get cable and wasn't able to see it. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!pisces From: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Belgium UFOs Message-ID: <1991Nov26.003743.18079@cs.mcgill.ca> Date: 26 Nov 91 00:37:43 GMT References: <1991Nov25.171338.269@sobeco.com> <1991Nov25.182829.28999noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov25.212512.24448@sobeco.com> Sender: news@cs.mcgill.ca (Netnews Administrator) Organization: McGill University Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3777 alt.alien.visitors:3303 In article <1991Nov25.212512.24448@sobeco.com> ladislas@sobeco.com (Dorian Farlight) writes: >In <1991Nov25.182829.28999noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >>Assuming what they said is not full of crock: do we have a stealth fighter >>that can silently hover for several minutes and then shoot straight up and >>out of sight in a couple of seconds? That would be some stealth fighter! > >I've read the stealth fighter story here. The post also mentioned that the >U.S. Gvnmt acknowledged it. Whatever it was, it sure cause a lot of confusion. >Maybe the UFOs should be called CUFOs - Confusing Unidentified Flying Objects. Also, the stealth fighter would hardly be worthy of its name if it had three big spotlights on its underside that could light up the ground like a football field. And I've never seen a stealth fighter with a pulsating red light in the centre of its belly that could emit a ball of red light that zipped up and down between the craft and the ground (as witnesses of the UFOs described). I have also never seen stealth fighters behave in the manner that one of the UFOs did as captured on the radar screens at military installations in Belgium (and filmed for posterity). Can a stealth fighter descend/ascend at 1900 feet/sec? Does it travel at 1500 miles per hour (2414 kilometres per hour), twice the speed of sound? The sonic booms might make it a little less "stealthy"! And I would imagine that the Belgian government might get a little upset if the U.S. military was performing manoeuvres over Belgium in this way. The U.S. government is not above misinformation, so its "admission" is hardly the final word. But hey, maybe they were American aircraft. After all, those Americans are so clever, eh? Maybe they really are light-years beyond the rest of us backward nations and can defy all known physical laws. Oh Great One -- We bow before your great Technology . . . "Big Science -- Hallelujah . . . Big Science -- Yodel-ay-hee-who" (Laurie Anderson) Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!nmsu!opus!niall From: niall@nmsu.edu (Niall Graham) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 03:09:06 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> Sender: news@NMSU.Edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Computing Research Lab Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3304 alt.conspiracy:8920 sci.skeptic:18023 In-reply-to: jrbd@craycos.com's message of 21 Nov 91 17:13:49 GMT >> On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile >>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a >>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze. >> ... >This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west. >Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when >they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws... However, the direction from the three mile bridge to Gulf Breeze is SSE. Has any *reasonable* explanation for the Gulf Breeze sightings been proposed yet? Niall Graham Los Alamos Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!fl0p+ From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 01:35:59 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov25.082442.25959@tygra.Michigan.COM> Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 4 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3305 alt.config:5235 In-Reply-To: <1991Nov25.082442.25959@tygra.Michigan.COM> Will somebody *please* just newgroup alt.science.physics (I now think that is a better name than alt.physics), instead of talking about it? This is *ALT*, for goodness sakes! Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua From: joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: that UFO gif Message-ID: <1991Nov26.034104.25950@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Date: 26 Nov 91 03:41:04 GMT Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL Lines: 3 not really too incredibly impressive. josh Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!jtb From: jtb@abode.ttank.com (John P. Gibbons) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: DOWN 18 Message-ID: <1991Nov25.161823.1856@abode.ttank.com> Date: 25 Nov 91 16:18:23 GMT References: <1991Nov24.201519.2180@ac.dal.ca> Organization: Abode Computer Services Lines: 24 In article <1991Nov24.201519.2180@ac.dal.ca> rodger@ac.dal.ca writes: >We're looking for some videos on UFO's. So far we've seen: [list of a few video's deleted] > >If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to >search for. We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's >experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience". We haven't been >able to find this one yet. The UFO experience was a made for TV movie and is hard to find on video (it might not even be available at all). However every once in a while it will turn up on tv somewhere. The USA cable network has shown it a couple of times. As far as other video's try going to as many of your local video stores as possible and search the documentary section. There is a lot out there if you look hard enough. Hope that helps, John -- // John P. Gibbons uucp: ..!uunet!elroy!wciu!abode!jtb \X/ El Monte, Ca Internet: jtb@abode.ttank.com "From the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen." -- Cat Stevens Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!john From: john@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (John Blasik) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: that UFO gif Message-ID: <1991Nov26.050316.26329@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Date: 26 Nov 91 05:03:16 GMT References: <1991Nov26.034104.25950@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL Lines: 37 joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) writes: >not really too incredibly impressive. > >josh > Oh, idonno. I kind of enjoyed the part that went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and M!MJ/(!YXL "(("@ HD/_#8'(T$,@)) " HH"$+$%%/L4 @/7?1P0R!\ .(' had me in stitches for 10 minutes! -- john Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!groucho.dev.uga.edu!harold From: harold@groucho.dev.uga.edu (Harold Pritchett) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: <1991Nov26.135812.21144@athena.cs.uga.edu> Date: 26 Nov 91 13:58:12 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@athena.cs.uga.edu Organization: University of Georgia, Athens Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5237 alt.alien.visitors:3309 sci.physics:14913 sci.skeptic:18034 In article <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: >Just a recap of the original posting before summarizing the feedback I've >received so far. I'll also ask for your opinion on what the newsgroup name >should be. > >In article Jon Noring (noring@netcom.COM) writes: >> >>I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss >>alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will >>be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully >>in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. I believe that it >>should be an alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science. >>Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a sci.physics.* group >>can be created, but for now I think it best to stick to an alt.* group. >> >> >>A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) How about: alt.weird.science (I couldn't resist) Harold Pritchett The University of Georgia harold@groucho.dev.uga.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de> Date: 26 Nov 91 14:37:53 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> <1991Nov24.143952.21482@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@rhrk.uni-kl.de Reply-To: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) Organization: University of Kaiserslautern (Germany) Lines: 40 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3310 alt.conspiracy:8932 sci.skeptic:18036 In article <1991Nov24.143952.21482@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >In article <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) writes: >>In article <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >>>The following is part of a series on the Gulfbreeze UFO's. >>> >>> STRANGE LIGHT IN SKY DRAWS ATTENTION >>> by David Baker, THE GULF BREEZE SENTINEL, March 3, 1991. >>> >>> On February 23, 1991 two Pensacola men were sighing on the three mile >>>bridge. AT approximately 7:50 p.m. the fishermen's attention was drawn to a >>>bright red light which suddenly appeared over Gulf Breeze. >>> The two men said the light would dim then come back bright red, stay that >>>way for a while and then dim again, all the while moving slowly in their >>>direction. They detected no sound from the object. >>> Before the object disappeared it blinked to green momentarily, changed to a >>>brilliant white and slowly faded away. The sighting lasted about four minutes >>>and there were nine additional witnesses. >> >>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west. >Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when >>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws... > >For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume >that it was a planet. Read the description again. The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when there are no stars. -Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy- ------------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)----------- --The human mind is too complex to understand for the human mind,-- --or, in other words, the human mind is too simple to understand--- --------------------------the human mind.-------------------------- -Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy- Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!blacks!pquince From: pquince@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Peter Quince) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 20:06:20 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov21.171349.10889@craycos.com> <1991Nov24.143952.21482@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Usenet) Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3311 alt.conspiracy:8939 sci.skeptic:18050 Nntp-Posting-Host: blacks.jpl.nasa.gov dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >>This sounds like a description of a bright planet setting in the west. >>Apparently there are a lot of people out there who don't know Venus when >>they see it, and not a few reporters who are eager to grasp at straws... >For a sighting that lasted for *4 minutes* it is illogical to presume >that it was a planet. Read the description again. > Yes, but it was a UFO. It was in the air. It was an object. It was not identified. Who cares what it was? Speculation is pointless. It was, in fact, not anything. It was nothing. It was some guys telling what they saw. So what. So what. So what. So what. -P Quince Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!mojo.eng.umd.edu!mimsy!harwood From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Belgium UFOs Message-ID: <43790@mimsy.umd.edu> Date: 26 Nov 91 19:50:15 GMT References: <1991Nov25.182829.28999noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov25.212512.24448@sobeco.com> <1991Nov26.003743.18079@cs.mcgill.ca> Sender: news@mimsy.umd.edu Followup-To: alt.paranormal Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.paranormal:3785 alt.alien.visitors:3312 >>In <1991Nov25.182829.28999noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: >> >>>Assuming what they said is not full of crock: do we have a stealth fighter >>>that can silently hover for several minutes and then shoot straight up and >>>out of sight in a couple of seconds? That would be some stealth fighter! >> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Actually, we are forgetting something here - the U.S. not only tries to develop stealth aircraft, but tries to develop ECM, electronic counter-measures, technology for its stealth and conventional aircraft. The idea is to build a stealth aircraft which cannot be detected easily by radar reflection, but which electronically recieves the radar signals so that it re-emits false "echoes" which misrepresent the range and velocity of the aircraft. (There can even be multiple false bogeys.) Possibly the Belgium radar systems were being intentionally tested by stealth aircraft with advanced ECM. It would explain the high accelerations in range. (It might explain lateral or angular vectors, of course.) Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson From: mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Twelth Planet Message-ID: <422800006@peg> Date: 26 Nov 91 20:41:00 GMT References: <14754542@91324.124049JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu> Lines: 12 Nf-ID: #R:91324.124049JLS19@psuvm.psu.edu:-1475454236:peg:422800006:000:538 Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson Nov 26 16:41:00 1991 Wow, I was just about to post a similar request. I am halfway through reading the Twelth Planet, and I find it quite amazing. What I would like to know, is, Are there any studies, evidence, etc around which claim to refute Sitchin's thesis, that aliens were here in the past, and have seeded the earth with humans. Also the astronomical evidence for the twelth planet seems to be quite convincing. Any astronomers out there familiar with the theory? I would love to hear a critique of Sitchins work. That is, if there is one. Mark Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!psuvax1!rutgers!noao!arizona!arizona.edu!east.pima.edu!130hnunamake From: 130hnunamake@east.pima.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: IN SEARCH IN ARIZONA... Message-ID: <1991Nov26.132636.1@east.pima.edu> Date: 26 Nov 91 20:26:36 GMT Lines: 2 IM SEARCHING FOR ANY GROUPS THAT TAKE UFO'S SERIOUSLY IN ARIZONA. IF YOU KNOW OF ANY GROUPS PLEASE SEND ME ANYTHING YOU HAVE... Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm From: jbm@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: A New Type of UFO Message-ID: <1991Nov26.231549.17507@trl.oz.au> Date: 26 Nov 91 23:15:49 GMT Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 8 (Was: Any Idea What This Is?) Since "This" has generated so much interest on alt.alien.visitors, it must be a UFO: Unauthorized Fallacious Offer Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 17:09:46 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <5166@stl.co.uk> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5247 alt.alien.visitors:3316 sci.physics:14936 sci.skeptic:18058 In article <5166@stl.co.uk> dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright) writes: > >In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have >remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon >included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic. What's wrong with using >that? Of course if the level of specifically physics issues in that group I can't speak for Jon, but it's been my experience that sci.skeptic is frequently more like sci.debunk.rabidly. I have no desire to be personally attacked for my viewpoints. Do you remember the flaming about last January when several people who wished to discuss psychic phenomena wanted to start a sci.paranormal newsgroup? Some of the people in sci.skeptic refused to recognize the fact that not everyone who believes in such things is having trouble dealing with reality. That was half of the reason I stopped receiving sci.skeptic. When it was good it was very good, but when it was bad it was very bad, and it was on a real bad streak. (Of course, the people who insisted on using that group to discuss Christianity despite all the suggestions to move it elsewhere, didn't help. They were the other half of the reason.) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 18:24:51 GMT References: <1991Nov25.082556.9763@cbnewse.cb.att.com> <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> Distribution: na Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 In article <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes: > >By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed >that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical >UFO? More fun ;-) I don't know what the thing in the picture is, it could be a defect in the system for all I know, but Don Ecker takes it very seriously. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Nat'l Geo. Special Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 19:01:11 GMT References: <1991Nov25.221340.19003@colorado.edu> Distribution: na Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 8 I don't have time to say much, but it seemed to cover just about every possible theory about the circles. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 91 16:23:43 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3319 sci.physics:14937 sci.skeptic:18059 alt.config:5248 In article <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) writes: > I would like to see maybe a hiarchy, more like: > > alt.science.physics > alt.science.cosmology > (etc) > > So that as other scientific topics come up they could be accomodated, >rather than limiting the discussion to only physics. But that means having to add a bunch of newsgroups all the time, rather than just one. I still like something like "alt.science" or "alt.science.fringe". -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Ufos In Belgium Message-ID: <91588.293295A1@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Nov 91 17:23:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - I thought the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Belgian UFOs was > fascinating. I'd say the evidence points to something happening. > > Does anyone know of any books published to date specifically on > this Belgian UFO controversy, and widely available in the U.S.? > I haven't noted anything on the bookstore shelves yet...... Watch for something soon. Auguste Meessen has published a book in French on the entire Beligian case and that book is being translated into English for distribution in the US. Meessen is associated with SOBEPS, the group that has been conducting the investigation. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Something Huge! Message-ID: <91589.293295A3@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Nov 91 17:24:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from > the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month: > > SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE. SOMETHING THAT WILL > UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF > THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. > > Let's hope so... Once and for all... Eventhough I wasn't told any more, > I was told this by a UFO Insider. That's ALL I KNOW! > > Still, I thought it exciting enough news to share with all of you! Let's hope so. This line has been used over the last forty years with nothing revelatory forthcoming. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Ufos In Belgium Message-ID: <91590.293295A5@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Nov 91 17:30:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - As I said before, I'm still skeptical, but what was surprising to me > was the apparent cooperation of the Belgium air force authorities. > (Who knows what NATO thinks about this?) [vis a vis the official US > air force reponse to intercepts over SAC bases reported years ago]. Let's stay skeptical. There are two possible scenarios involving the Belgian military: 1) They are up to no good by bringing in a civilian group only to confuse them and mislead them, eventually to discredit them; or 2) This represents an unprecedented turning point in organized ufology, and someone is trying to get the subject legitimized. I have already heard from someone there who has a differing viewpoint, which I shall post here. We must keep a close eye on this case as it unfolds. > By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed > that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical > UFO? More fun ;-) That was ParaNet's Don Ecker. He is also research director for UFO Magazine. The photograph that he showed was provided by Dr. Marina Popovich, a Russian Air Force Colonel. Although the photograph has not been formally studied by anyone here in the US, it is highly interesting. Don will be joining us here in the very near future. The Belgian matter will follow this message. -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Belgian UFO Message-ID: <91591.293295A8@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 26 Nov 91 17:30:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Date: 27 Nov 91 12:09:47 GMT Sender: usenet@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (NNTP server account) Organization: Memorial University. St.John's Nfld, Canada Lines: 3 My friend, Cindy Wendel, has her 20th Birthday today ( Wednesday, 27 Nov). She loves to get mail. Her email address is 'wendel@meena.cc.uregina.ca'. Thank-you! Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!ukma!hsdndev!encore!parity!epeterso From: epeterso@parity.encore.com (Eric Peterson) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 27 Nov 91 18:22:08 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <5166@stl.co.uk> Sender: news@Encore.COM Reply-To: epeterson@encore.com (Eric Peterson) Followup-To: alt.config Organization: Encore Computer Corp, Gemini Diagnostics Development Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5254 alt.alien.visitors:3325 sci.physics:14951 sci.skeptic:18068 Nntp-Posting-Host: parity.encore.com News-Software: NN 6.4.16 dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright) writes: | In the referenced article noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: | #I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss | #alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will | #be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully | #in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. | | In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have | remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon | included it in his Newsgroups list - sci.skeptic. In the history of the alt.* hierarchy, nobody in alt.config seems to have remembered that there IS a group in the alt.* hierarchy for such discussions: alt.paranormal. Eric -- Eric Peterson <> epeterson@encore.com <> uunet!encore!epeterson Encore Computer Corp. * Ft. Lauderdale, Florida * (305) 587-2900 x 5208 "The heat and light from the sun are caused by the nuclear reaction between hydrogen, helium, oxygen, estrogen, AND hair." - They Might Be Giants Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc From: Robert_Sutton@kcbbs.gen.nz (Robert Sutton) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Don Ecker Message-ID: <68124.331914621@kcbbs.gen.nz> Date: 28 Nov 91 18:55:24 GMT References: <91590.293295A5@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand Lines: 39 >>By the way did anyone see the UFO proponent on Larry King who claimed >>that the Soviets have deep space sat photos of a huge cylindrical UFO >>More Fun ;-) >>That was Paranets Don Ecker.He is Research Dir of UFO Magazine.The >>photo that he showed was provided by Dr Marina Popovich a Russian Lt Coln Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object in question was estimatedto be 25km long. Questions that came immediately to mind include. 1/Who exactly is Dr Popovich. 2/Why was she at the Tucson conference. 3/Why hadn't these photos been widely publicised before. 4/How did Popovich get hold of them. 5/What she plans to do with them. 6/Who did she get them from. 7/Why they were available at all. 8/What will Don Ecker do with them. 9/What Don Ecker hopes to do with them. 10/What Don Ecker hopes others will do with them. 11/What Don Ecker hopes will happen if nothing much else will happen to them. 12/What the bods at NASA think of them. 13/Has anyone tried to make fakes identical to them. 14/WHAT THOSE ON THIS GROUP WILL DO ABOUT IT ALL...... And also whats the lowdown on this UFO Video Clearinghouse & the press releases on the crop circles that received no replies? Will be most interested in a response & followups. ************************************ ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL ****************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!cornell!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov27.201413.6049@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:14:13 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3327 sci.physics:14952 sci.skeptic:18069 alt.config:5256 In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: ... |> But that means having to add a bunch of newsgroups all the time, rather |> than just one. I still like something like "alt.science" or |> "alt.science.fringe". |> ... Put me down for "alt.science.fringe". I don't think that just the "alt" hierarchy is enough, it needs something else in the name to make it different than "sci.physics". "fringe" sums it up quite nicely without being offensive. Using "science" rather than "physics" opens it up better. my 2 Leonard. -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!stan!dennis From: dennis@solbourne.com (Dennis Lemon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Cylindrical UFO WAS: Re: Don Ecker Message-ID: <1991Nov27.203318.6725@solbourne.com> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:33:18 GMT References: <91590.293295A5@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <68124.331914621@kcbbs.gen.nz> Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc., Longmont, CO Lines: 42 In article <68124.331914621@kcbbs.gen.nz> Robert_Sutton@kcbbs.gen.nz (Robert Sutton) writes: >>>By the way did anyone see the UFO proponent on Larry King who claimed >>>that the Soviets have deep space sat photos of a huge cylindrical UFO >>>More Fun ;-) > >>>That was Paranets Don Ecker.He is Research Dir of UFO Magazine.The >>>photo that he showed was provided by Dr Marina Popovich a Russian Lt Coln > > >Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I >hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming >to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker >held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object >in question was estimatedto be 25km long. ******* Rhetorical Questions Deleted ******* Let's discuss this. Does anyone know any information about large cylindrical ships which are used for interplanetary transport? I attended a lecture by Gene Roddenbury (yes, Star Trek) back in the mid-1970s. He described a cylindrical ship in his discussion as being similar to what we use aircraft carriers for - ferrying smaller UFOs around. Does anyone have any information on this? With Gene's passing away, I regret having never tried contacting him about this. Have any of you ever attended one of his UFO lectures? And do you recall him mentioning this? >************************************ >ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY OR ARE >THEY JUST WAITING TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL >****************************************** > ETOI. ETOI. I give up. What does ETOI stand for? -- ||||mmm________________mmm|||| <----Get Into Some Heavy Metal! \\ ===== // Dennis Lemon Some guy who works at... \\ O O' // (303) 678-4318 Solbourne Computer, Inc \\ ( ' // dennis@solbourne.COM Longmont, Colorado 80501 Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: DOWN 18 Message-ID: <1991Nov27.204630.27222@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:46:30 GMT References: <1991Nov24.201519.2180@ac.dal.ca> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 29 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu In a previous article, rodger@ac.dal.ca () says: >We're looking for some videos on UFO's. So far we've seen: > 1. A Cosmos film which tried to debunk all known sitings > 2. One hosted by William Shatner which was mostly Eric von Dannikan type > information about visits in the past. > 3. SETI, which was about the search for alien intelligence using radio > transmissions > 4. UFO's Are Real, which had some great stills and film footage. This one > was the most pro-UFO one we've seen. > 5. Communion, which was a Hollywood type version of Whitley Streiber's book > of the same name. > >If anyone out there knows of any others, we'd love to get some titles to >search for. We also know of the one based on Betty and Barney Hill's >experience which I think is called "The UFO Experience". We haven't been >able to find this one yet. > >Thanks > There is a place that has a wide variety of Audio-Video. It is as follows: The U.F.O. Audio-Video Clearing House P.O. Box 342 Yucaipa, California 92399-0342 24 Hour Phone (714) 795-3361 Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj From: jcj@tellab3.tellabs.com (jcj) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: NE Asteroids/Death from Above/Cylindrical Motherships Message-ID: <1991Nov27.185736.10505@tellab5.tellabs.com> Date: 27 Nov 91 18:57:36 GMT Sender: news@tellab5.tellabs.com (News) Distribution: na Organization: Babylon Systems Lines: 96 Originator: jcj@tellab3 Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3 1991VG is predicted to pass Earth on December 5th. Smart money says it's a Saturn V booster stage. From Bruce Watson: EVERYTHING ARTIFICIAL IN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT (1991VG candidates) 112 59 MU 1 LUNA 1 USSR 02 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 113 59 NU 1 PIONEER 4 US 03 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 27 60 ALP 1 PIONEER 5 US 11 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 80 61 GAM 1 VENERA 1 USSR 12 FEB HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 221 62 ALP 1 RANGER 1 US 26 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 222 62 ALP 2 RANGER 1 DEBRIS US 26 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 282 62 MU 2 RANGER 4 DEBRIS US 23 APR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 374 62 A RHO1 MARINER 2 US 27 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 375 62 A RHO2 MARINER 2 DEBRIS US 27 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 439 62 B ETA1 RANGER 5 US 18 OCT HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 440 62 B ETA2 RANGER 5 DEBRIS US 18 OCT HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 450 62 B NU 2 MARS 1 DEBRIS USSR 01 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 785 64 016D ZOND 1 USSR 02 APR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 923 64 073A MARINER 3 US 05 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 938 64 077A MARINER 4 US 28 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 942 64 077B MARINER 4 DEBRIS US 28 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 953 64 078C ZOND 2 USSR 30 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1298 65 023B RANGER 9 DEBRIS US 21 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1393 65 048A LUNA 6 USSR 08 JUN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1454 65 056A ZOND 3 USSR 18 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1730 65 091A VENERA 2 USSR 12 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1736 65 091D VENERA 2 DEBRIS USSR 12 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 1841 65 015A PIONEER 6 US 16 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 2130 65 027D LUNA 10 DEBRIS USSR 31 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 2393 66 075A PIONEER 7 US 17 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 2402 66 075C PIONEER 7 DEBRIS US 17 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 2845 67 060A MARINER 5 US 14 JUN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 2846 67 060B MARINER 5 DEBRIS US 14 JUN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3066 67 123A PIONEER 8 US 13 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3134 68 013A ZOND 4 USSR 02 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3533 68 100A PIONEER 9 US 08 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3627 68 118B APOLLO 8 DEBRIS US 21 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3759 69 014A MARINER 6 US 25 FEB HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3760 69 014B MARINER 6 DEBRIS US 25 FEB HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3770 69 018B APOLLO 9 S-4-B US 03 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3837 69 030A MARINER 7 US 27 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3845 69 030B MARINER 7 DEBRIS US 27 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3943 69 043B APOLLO 10 DEBRIS US 18 MAY HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 3949 69 043D APOLLO 10 LM/ASC US 18 MAY HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 4040 69 059B APOLLO 11 DEBRIS US 16 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 5267 71 051B MARINER 9 DEBRIS US 30 MAY HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 5861 72 012B PIONEER 10 DEBRIS US 03 MAR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 6425 73 019B PIONEER 11 DEBRIS US 06 APR HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 6742 73 047A MARS 4 USSR 21 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 6776 73 053A MARS 7 USSR 09 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 7224 73 053D CAPSULE USSR 09 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 6919 73 085A MARINER 10 US 03 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 7567 74 097A HELIUS 1 FRG 10 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 7569 74 097C HELIUS 1 DEBRIS US 10 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 7570 74 097D HELIUS 1 DEBRIS US 10 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 7947 75 054A VENERA 10 USSR 14 JUN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 8111 75 075B VIKING 1 US 20 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 8272 75 083B VIKING 2 US 09 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 8582 76 003A HELIOS 2 FRG 15 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 8583 76 003B HELIOS 2 DEBRIS US 15 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 8584 76 003C HELIOS 2 DEBRIS US 15 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10272 77 076B VOYAGER 2 DEBRIS US 20 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10273 77 076C VOYAGER 2 DEBRIS US 20 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10321 77 064A VOYAGER 1 US 05 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10322 77 064B VOYAGER 1 DEBRIS US 05 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10323 77 064C VOYAGER 1 DEBRIS US 05 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 10912 78 051B PIONEER 12 US 20 MAY HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 11003 78 078C PIONEER 13 DEBRIS US 08 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 11004 78 079A ICE US 12 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 11020 78 084A VENERA 11 USSR 09 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 11025 78 086A VENERA 12 USSR 14 SEP HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 12927 81 105E VENERA 13 USSR 30 OCT HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 12938 81 110A VENERA 14 USSR 04 NOV HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 14104 83 053A VENERA 15 USSR 02 JUN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15432 84 125A VEGA 1 USSR 15 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15447 84 125D VEGA 1 DEBRIS USSR 15 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15449 84 128A VEGA 2 USSR 21 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15450 84 128B VEGA 2 DEBRIS USSR 21 DEC HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15464 85 001A MS-TS JAPAN 07 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15465 85 001B MS-TS DEBRIS JAPAN 07 JAN HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15875 85 056A GIOTTO ESA 02 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15967 85 073A PLANET A JAPAN 18 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 15969 85 073C PLANET A DEBRIS JAPAN 18 AUG HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 19281 88 058A PHOBOS 1 USSR 07 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 19282 88 058B PHOBOS 1 DEBRIS USSR 07 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 19287 88 059A PHOBOS 2 USSR 12 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 19288 88 059B PHOBOS 2 DEBRIS USSR 12 JUL HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT 20842 90 090B ULYSSES US 06 OCT HELIOCENTRIC ORBIT Ephemerides on newly discovered asteroids and comets are posted weekly in sci.astro. -- jcj@tellabs.com Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!lucid.com!lucidboston!yduj From: yduj@lucid.com (Judy Anderson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <1991Nov27.205209.13789@lucid.com> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:52:09 GMT References: <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> <1991Nov27.201413.6049@mprgate.mpr.ca> Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA Lines: 5 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3332 sci.physics:14953 sci.skeptic:18071 alt.config:5259 How about alt.science.bogus ? yduJ (Judy Anderson) yduJ@lucid.com 'yduJ' rhymes with 'fudge' Join the League for Programming Freedom, league@prep.ai.mit.edu Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!unlinfo.unl.edu!czarbock From: czarbock@unlinfo.unl.edu (carol zarbock) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: NE Asteroids/Death from Above/Cylindrical Motherships Message-ID: <1991Nov27.215408.16938@unlinfo.unl.edu> Date: 27 Nov 91 21:54:08 GMT References: <1991Nov27.185736.10505@tellab5.tellabs.com> Distribution: na Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln Lines: 6 Just out of curiousity, are there any bodies out there in any of that debris from any cover ups from other nations' space shots? Carol Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom From: tom@kether.webo.dg.com (Tom Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 27 Nov 91 23:35:28 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Sender: usenet@webo.dg.com (Usenet Administration) Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp. Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5261 alt.alien.visitors:3334 sci.physics:14955 sci.skeptic:18078 In-Reply-To: noring@netcom.COM's message of 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT >>>>> On 21 Nov 91 01:06:12 GMT, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) said: Jon> Hello, Jon> I'd like feedback on the possible creation of an alt.* newsgroup Jon> to discuss alternative physics theories that do not fit Jon> mainstream views. It will be a forum where both the proponents Jon> and the skeptics can interact (hopefully in a civilized manner Jon> :^) ) to discuss these theories. I believe that it should be an Jon> alt.* group since it will obviously be on the fringe of science. Jon> Maybe at a future time if there is enough interest a Jon> sci.physics.* group can be created, but for now I think it best Jon> to stick to an alt.* group. Jon> A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) ... Jon> Jon Noring Jon, I like the idea. Go for it! Also, I DON'T agree that sci.skeptic replaces this, as sci.skeptic is more for bashing such theories with science. I'd like to have a more open atmosphere. Tom Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> Date: 27 Nov 91 22:15:45 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5263 alt.alien.visitors:3335 sci.physics:14960 sci.skeptic:18080 I'm getting close to sending out the control message to create the proposed newsgroup. There is strong support for its creation. However, the name is still giving me fits. I won't go over the arguments by several people (and all had good, albeit conflicting viewpoints). However, the gist of it is that alt.science may be too confusing and too broad; likewise for alt.science.physics. One solution to this dilemma is the following name: alt.new-theories.science.physics This name states exactly and unambiguously what I would like to see this newsgroup for. Though somewhat unwieldy, it is much less so than many of the alt groups such as those in the alt.binaries hierarchy. It is also hierarchical so that one could create at some future date, if desired, alt.new-theories.science.chemistry. It would also allow someone to create alt.new-theories.* - for example: alt.new-theories.history (I don't personally have an interest in such a newsgroup, I just cite it as an example.) I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after next Tuesday. Please let me know what you think by then. If you have a compelling argument as to why it should not be named that, I will postpone its creation for further discussion. Otherwise, it will be created. Get your new theories lined up and ready to post! BTW, I appreciate everybody's input so far. Have a happy Thanksgiving! Jon Noring (BTW, I might not be able to create the newsgroup from netcom for one of two reasons: 1) Bob Rieger, who operates netcom, might not give me permission to do so, and/or 2) netcom's news software might not allow it. Thus, I'd like to ask for volunteers out there who would be willing to create the newsgroup for me when the time comes.) -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (510) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: Date: 27 Nov 91 04:44:55 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3336 alt.conspiracy:8988 sci.skeptic:18084 In article niall@nmsu.edu (Niall Graham) writes: > >Has any *reasonable* explanation for the Gulf Breeze sightings >been proposed yet? I heard a while ago that the government was testing a new kind of small, remotely-piloted helicopter somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico area. Sorry I don't have the details handy. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 27 Nov 91 04:50:14 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3337 alt.config:5268 In article fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro) writes: > > Will somebody *please* just newgroup alt.science.physics (I now think >that is a better name than alt.physics), instead of talking about it? >This is *ALT*, for goodness sakes! I agree we need the group, but we really should agree on a name first! It would be uncool to have lots of groups running around. In the comp.sys.amiga hierarchy (where you're supposed to follow procedure) we're still trying to flush out garbage like c.s.a.datacom (the real one has two m's), c.s.a.emulation (the real one has an s on the end), c.s.a.unix (the real one is comp.unix.amiga), etc, all because someone newgrouped them as soon as they were proposed! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: that UFO gif Message-ID: Date: 27 Nov 91 04:50:54 GMT References: <1991Nov26.034104.25950@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 10 In article <1991Nov26.034104.25950@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) writes: >not really too incredibly impressive. I've never seen one that is. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Summary: Venus != UFO Message-ID: <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> Date: 28 Nov 91 22:05:16 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de> Organization: ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE WA. Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3339 alt.conspiracy:9007 sci.skeptic:18099 In article <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes: > > The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear > behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when > there are no stars. The description did however describe the object as RED, dimming occasionally and coming closer, then blinking to green, and a brilliant white and dissappearing. I don't see what the weather or Venus has to do with this. I have seen Venus many times. It appears to me as almost white, maybe slightly yellowish very bright, larger than a star, and it has never turned red, green, blinked, or come visibly closer to me. I fail to see how this persons observation can be explained as Venus. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 29 Nov 91 04:19:48 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5279 alt.alien.visitors:3340 sci.physics:14976 sci.skeptic:18103 In article <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM >, noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes:> > One solution to this dilemma is the following name: > > alt.new-theories.science.physics > I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after > next Tuesday. Please let me know what you think by then. If you have a > compelling argument as to why it should not be named that, I will postpone > its creation for further discussion. Otherwise, it will be created. Well, Jon, if you recieved this after "next Tuesday" you probably already know that the proposed name (above) is too liong for the title line. It appears to me that the limit is about `pic x(25).' Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Delphos, Kansas - 1971? Message-ID: <1991Nov29.052619.6219@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 29 Nov 91 05:26:19 GMT Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu I had a request for information about the landing trace incident in Delphos, Kansas in about 1971. From my recollection, I remember that this was passed off as a fungus growth on the ground which caused the circle to form and for grass not to grow on that spot for some time. If anyone has any info on this, please E-Mail me some info at my number. I've been looking back 10 years in the MUFON Journal and other books but haven't found anything on it. Thanks, Dale B. Wedge, Co SySop Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy Sig Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 28 Nov 91 05:58:22 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <5166@stl.co.uk> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5280 alt.alien.visitors:3342 sci.physics:14977 sci.skeptic:18104 In article epeterso@parity.encore.com (Eric Peterson) writes: > >In the history of the alt.* hierarchy, nobody in alt.config seems to have >remembered that there IS a group in the alt.* hierarchy for such discussions: >alt.paranormal. Personally I'd like to see attempts at putting the paranormal into hard science have their own group. I'm not against the discussion of paranormal phenomena in their own framework, but I'd like to be able to be selective in what I receive since I'm getting news long-distance. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Cylindrical UFO WAS: Re: Don Ecker Message-ID: Date: 28 Nov 91 06:08:43 GMT References: <91590.293295A5@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> <68124.331914621@kcbbs.gen.nz> <1991Nov27.203318.6725@solbourne.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 29 In article <1991Nov27.203318.6725@solbourne.com> dennis@solbourne.com (Dennis Lemon) writes: > >Let's discuss this. Does anyone know any information about large >cylindrical ships which are used for interplanetary transport? > >I attended a lecture by Gene Roddenbury (yes, Star Trek) back in the >mid-1970s. He described a cylindrical ship in his discussion as being >similar to what we use aircraft carriers for - ferrying smaller UFOs >around. Interesting, I didn't know he was into UFOs. Anyway, apparently people used to see large cigar-shaped UFOs. (Maybe they still do, but they were never as common as the saucers.) These were called "mother ships" because they were said to carry saucers around. Indeed it does make sense, using a large ship to haul a group of planetary vehicles between planets. (Until Lazar said the saucers had warp capability, anyway! :-) Getting back to the Phobos probe picture, however, I remember in some early rumors (before anyone had seen the picture) it was called a "missile". In case anyone didn't know, the Phobos probe died abruptly -- allegedly very soon after that picture was taken. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.config Subject: Re: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: Date: 28 Nov 91 06:16:42 GMT References: <1575@eskimo.celestial.com> <1991Nov27.201413.6049@mprgate.mpr.ca> <1991Nov27.205209.13789@lucid.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3344 sci.physics:14978 sci.skeptic:18105 alt.config:5281 In article <1991Nov27.205209.13789@lucid.com> yduj@lucid.com (Judy Anderson) writes: > >How about alt.science.bogus ? Let me guess, you're from sci.skeptic, right? It's unthinking abuse like that that makes the group, whatever it ends up being called, all the more necessary! This is the same sort of comment that was being posted in sci.skeptic at about the time alt.paranormal was created. How can you possibly say whether something is bogus when you don't even know what it is? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 28 Nov 91 06:28:19 GMT References: <1991Nov21.010612.5700noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5282 alt.alien.visitors:3345 sci.physics:14979 sci.skeptic:18106 In article <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >One solution to this dilemma is the following name: > >alt.new-theories.science.physics > >This name states exactly and unambiguously what I would like to see this >newsgroup for. Though somewhat unwieldy, it is much less so than many of >the alt groups such as those in the alt.binaries hierarchy. It is also I haven't seen the alt.binaries hierarchy, but I can't imagine anything more unwieldly than alt.new-theories.science.physics. If you're set on restricting it to physics for now, how about alt.new-theories.physics which at least puts it under the 30-character name limit in AmigaDOS. (The most commonly-used (as far as I know) Usenet software for the Ami doesn't store news in hierarchical directories, but in directories named for the full name of the group. I asked the author to fix it once, but nothing has been done so far.) I hope to receive the group, if my feed site receives it and if flaming doesn't make the traffic level unbearable. I don't see the wisdom in going mega-hierarchical and shoving "science" into the name at this point. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: SOMETHING HUGE! Message-ID: Date: 29 Nov 91 04:23:37 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 13 Dusty Garza (dusty@abode.ttank.com) recently posted something to the effect that major evidence of government involvement with UFOs would be revealed at a convention next month. Unfortunately, I've heard a bad rumor on Paranet. It's unconfirmed, but apparently Wendelle Stevens was recently interrogated by the FBI and as a result his surprise guest, who works at Area 51 or thereabouts, has gone into hiding. A videotape will be shown in his place, but I don't know what it concerns. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Cooper changes his story AGAIN Message-ID: Date: 29 Nov 91 04:28:35 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 12 While publicising his theory that JFK was shot by his driver, Bill Cooper recently stated that the whole alien scenario outlined by him was just a government plot to get people to rally behind a one-world government. HE DENIED BEING THE AUTHOR OF ALL THE TEXT FILES WRITTEN AND UPLOADED IN HIS NAME. I guess that about wraps it up for Cooper, as if there was still much doubt. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!van-bc!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!alberta!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Encounters from the Unknown Message-ID: Date: 29 Nov 91 10:04:57 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 14 Yesterday, I was just turning on the TV to search for E.T. the movie (wooopeee) and I stumbled upon the beginning of a show called 'Encounters from the Unknown'. I ended up watching it. What followed were 3 stories from various people. Quite interesting, especially the first one where the guy actually walks inside the spacecraft. I recorded it on tape too. Did anybody else catch this show? I think it could be a weekly show, I'll check my Saturday's TV guide and find out. Gary --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!raven.alaska.edu!acad3.alaska.edu!fscjg1 From: fscjg1@acad3.alaska.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: starting UFO magazine.!! Message-ID: <1991Nov29.175423.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Date: 29 Nov 91 21:54:23 GMT Sender: news@raven.alaska.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks Lines: 1 Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu you bunch of fucking geeks get some sun you mint green-skinned bastards Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cuuxb!tellab5!vpnet!lisbon From: lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: 29 Nov 91 17:03:23 GMT References: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Organization: Vpnet Public Access Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5286 alt.alien.visitors:3350 sci.physics:14994 sci.skeptic:18123 In article <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes: >In article <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM >> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after >> next Tuesday. >Well, Jon, if you recieved this after "next Tuesday" you probably already know >that the proposed name (above) is too liong for the title line. It appears to me >that the limit is about `pic x(25).' Let's see...... #1 alt.new-theories.science.physics (32 characters) #2 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.blondes (37 characters) Nope, can't nuke him on those grounds. Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this proposed new group - PLEASE! I vote NO. -- ============================================================================ | Help stamp out stupid .signature files! Gerry Swetsky WB9EBO | | vpnet - Public access Unix and Usenet | | Home (708)833-8122 vpnet (708)833-8126 lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us | ============================================================================ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG!Don.Ecker From: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Something Huge! Message-ID: <92558.29375C78@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 29 Nov 91 17:13:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 9:1012/3.0 - Date: 29 Nov 91 17:00:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 9:1012/3.0 - Well Larry said something to the effect"I'd like to do more on this"I > hope that indeed thier's more on this in particular the photos claiming > to show an ETOI spaceship taken by a Phobos craft 1 of which Don Ecker > held up.He said he had got it at a Tucson UFO conference & the object > in question was estimatedto be 25km long. Bob what I said was I "met" Marina Popovich there, I did not see the photo until she recieved a copy covertly from Cosmonaut Leonov later when she returned to the USSR. It is an infrared image their Phobos II craft sent back to earth just before the craft disapeared. > Questions that came immediately to mind include. > 1/Who exactly is Dr Popovich. She is retired Col. Marina Popovich, of the Red Air Force. Often touted as the Russian Chuck Yeager, who set over 100 world aviation records, wife of General Paval Popovich, the first Russian and human to rendezvous with another space craft in space. Oh, btw, those 100 world records? 90 are still standing. She brought the photo back in June on another visit here. When I broke the story back in May ( coming out in Omni ) I contacted a producer at NBC I know and the story made it to Hard Copy on about May 27th. > 2/Why was she at the Tucson conference. Speaking about UFOs in the USSR. > 3/Why hadn't these photos been widely publicised before. The Russians never released them, although they did release a photo of the objects shadow reflected off Mars. > 4/How did Popovich get hold of them. See my first answer. > 5/What she plans to do with them. See above. > 6/Who did she get them from. Center for Unmanned Space Flight > 7/Why they were available at all. They weren't. > 8/What will Don Ecker do with them. Attempt to get an impartial review of it. > 9/What Don Ecker hopes to do with them. See above. > 10/What Don Ecker hopes others will do with them. Examine them. > 11/What Don Ecker hopes will happen if nothing much else will happen > to them. That after some PR the public will want to know what in the world they are or what something like this may represent. > 12/What the bods at NASA think of them. Already talked to some of them and got several horse laughs. > 13/Has anyone tried to make fakes identical to them. Not to my knowledge. > 14/WHAT THOSE ON THIS GROUP WILL DO ABOUT IT ALL...... ??????????? > And also whats the lowdown on this UFO Video Clearinghouse & the press > releases on the crop circles that received no replies? The UFO Clearinghouse may be reached at 714-795-3361. As to the Press Releases that UFO Magazine sent out ( AP, UPI, City News Desk, CNN, Larry King Live, Reuters, ) explaining that those two gentlemen would have been hard pressed to do approx. 1000 circles last year by themselves, especially the circles that appeared under the nose of researchers "overnight", while the fields were under observation, because for example, if the figure of a low end of 1000 circles is correct, these two old gezzers would have had to make about 11 and one half circles each night, during the growing season, over about a 3 month period. That is 11 1/2 circles EACH night for around 90 days. Does not seem possible. Don Ecker Director Research UFO Magazine 818-951-1250 -- Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!psinntp!psinntp!bnlux1.bnl.gov!kyee From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.junk.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Dec1.020004.6369@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Date: 1 Dec 91 02:00:04 GMT References: <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973 Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5289 alt.alien.visitors:3353 sci.physics:15007 sci.skeptic:18133 In article <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) writes: >In article <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes: >>In article <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM >>> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics on or after > Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this > proposed new group - PLEASE! I vote NO. Isn't all this already covered in alt.junk or alt.trash? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Something Huge! Message-ID: <92728.29388BEF@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 1 Dec 91 03:35:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Well, we've been hearing about this for 44 years and I'm still waiting. > I can recall a few years ago that the "Smoking Gun" was going to come > out. I was one of the first to hear about the "MJ-12" documentation > from > Jim Spieser. I think all will agree that this was one of the greatest > hoaxes given out, not by Jim, but by those involved in the > documentation. Perhaps. However, the MJ-12 scenario cannot be so easily swept under the rug and fully discounted as a hoax, at least in the sense of what we might think of as a hoax. The documents contain some very interesting information that has later developed to be accurate. For example, the Donald Menzel connection. For years it was believed that Donald Menzel was simply a "debunker." Friedman uncovered the "other side" of Donald Menzel during his research into MJ-12 and startled the UFO community with the fact that Menzel was involved in the NSA and intelligence work going all the way back to the late 30s during his Navy days. What is interesting is that his name appeared on the MJ-12 documents long before anyone knew this. Yes, it is a matter of public record, but it was not something that would have stood out in sharp contrast unless someone was specifically looking for it. Just the mere fact that this information is contained in the MJ-12 documents indicates the level of the person who authored those documents, if they are fake. As we know, all disinformation contains some truth. As these documents indicate, there is either a sophisticated effort by some "agency" to have us believe them or they are real. I have to take the first choice rather than the latter until we are able to get more information on them. > They sure were made instant celebrities (Moore, Shandera, Friedman). > > Then F.U.F.O.R. gave Friedman, a man with an interest on this, a grant > for > $16,000 to prove what he had been expousing. Well, I have pictures of > the > Lake Erie Monster, so give me only $10,000 and I'll support my own > conclu- > sions. > > It's time to give grants to people who are critical thinkers and those > who > have a regard for Occam's Razor instead of going around in circles and > perpetuating such mish mash. I think that Stan has done a very thorough job in his research. At least the materials that he has provided me with indicate that he has done his job very well. I know from experience that this takes money. What is your opinion of his work? > The next big flap will occur when the government starts experimenting > with > an aircraft that they don't want the public to know about. Or, that will be a diversion to keep us busy while the real thing is going on. > Again Mike, tangible - read my lips - T A N G I B L E P R O O F is what > is required. Something that I can hold in my hand that Phil Klass can't > explain. I fully agree, but remember, Klass would still dispute tangible proof. :-) Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Cooper Changes His Story Again Message-ID: <92729.29388BF1@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 1 Dec 91 03:38:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - While publicising his theory that JFK was shot by his driver, Bill > Cooper > recently stated that the whole alien scenario outlined by him was just a > government plot to get people to rally behind a one-world government. > HE > DENIED BEING THE AUTHOR OF ALL THE TEXT FILES WRITTEN AND UPLOADED IN > HIS > NAME. I guess that about wraps it up for Cooper, as if there was still > much doubt. That is consistent with his behavior. He has changed in mid-stream before, using that very same excuse. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!van-bc!ubc-cs!alberta!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Krill File Message-ID: Date: 1 Dec 91 11:21:45 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 8 I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit or should I just ignore it? Gary --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 1 Dec 91 15:58:54 GMT References: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5292 alt.alien.visitors:3357 sci.physics:15020 sci.skeptic:18144 In article <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) writes: > > Someone find a different reason why he shouldn't create this > proposed new group - PLEASE! I vote NO. Well, the name is longer than the 30-character directory name limit in AmigaDOS (not my fault!); BUT: I think we DO need the group, and besides you don't need to have a vote to create an alt group. Plus, you can't vote by news anyway. You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it. Would you like to explain why? Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or something? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre Subject: Re: Krill File Message-ID: Date: 1 Dec 91 20:08:51 GMT References: Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3358 talk.bizarre:45866 In article gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit >or should I just ignore it? You could put it in your newsreader's krillfile. Sorry, I had to say it. (This is cross-posted from alt.alien.visitors to talk.bizarre so that the Krill will see it; that's the only newsgroup that I'm sure they read.) What do YOU think, Krill? Was the Krill file for real? -- K. -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson From: mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <422800007@peg> Date: 2 Dec 91 00:10:00 GMT Lines: 7 Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800007:000:317 Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson Dec 1 20:10:00 1991 /* Written 6:49 am Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */ /* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */ Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!darcy From: darcy@peg.pegasus.oz.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <422800008@peg> Date: 2 Dec 91 01:23:00 GMT References: <422800007@peg> Lines: 2 Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800007:peg:422800008:000:34 Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!darcy Dec 1 21:23:00 1991 Which newspaper ? In which city ? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs From: ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 2 Dec 91 08:13:47 GMT References: Reply-To: ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5300 alt.alien.visitors:3361 sci.physics:15031 sci.skeptic:18165 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it. Would you > like to explain why? Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or > something? I've sent mail to the fellow proposing the group. alt.sci already exists. Use it to hang .physics.new-stuff on. Keep things simple. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Dec2.115817.11004@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 2 Dec 91 00:58:16 GMT References: <1991Nov22.234954.227noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM> <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 24 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5301 alt.alien.visitors:3362 sci.physics:15032 sci.skeptic:18170 In article <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us>, lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) writes: > In article <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au (Big Al) writes: >>In article <1991Nov27.221545.10021noring@netcom.COM writes: >>> I tentatively plan to create alt.new-theories.science.physics ... >>......the proposed name (above) is too long for the title line. >> It appears to me that the limit is about `pic x(25).' > > Let's see...... > > #1 alt.new-theories.science.physics (32 characters) > #2 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.blondes (37 characters) > > Nope, can't nuke him on those grounds. > Gerry, What I said was the name is too long for THE TITLE LINE: GROUP: <......group name.......> ITEM 99999 (Current Item Range #99999 - #99999) ----------25------------- This is the case for many existing group names, e.g. comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives which truncates the current item range on any 80 character VDU. Jim Schaeffer also noted this on his amiga. Poor net controls? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 2 Dec 91 15:16:22 GMT References: <422800007@peg> Organization: Indiana University Lines: 63 In article <422800007@peg> mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes: > >/* Written 6:49 am Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */ >/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */ > > Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is >approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved >by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ? I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and, if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by astronomers (if it has been?). Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to the lying wonders of the aerial beings. UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of these beings. For your own sakes, give up your fantasies and believe that these manifestations are nothing new, but simply a continuation of the demonic manifestations which were easily understood by our forebears who had a simple "unsophisticated" belief in evil. That these manifestations are increasing in frequency is a sign of our times and the foolishness of men who reject the wisdom of the past. The article "UFOs, a Shattering Assault" is available on request. See also a very lengthy discussion of the history and categorization of CEs in "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future". Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you to worship the being that arrives. I don't at all recommend drugs!, but I think my experience in the 60s with hallucinogens gives me a much better understanding of the reality of illusions, their power, their effects, and the shaping of new realities for the participant. Illusion is (in a limited sense) reality. It is the reality of delusion, and we all suffer its influence over us by the fallen nature of our very existance. Knowing this, it is easier to make sense of UFOs and also to not fall victim to the much more seductive illusions to come. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj From: jcj@tellabs.com (jcj) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Dec2.150024.21369@tellab5.tellabs.com> Date: 2 Dec 91 15:00:24 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de> <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> Sender: news@tellab5.tellabs.com (News) Organization: Babylon Systems Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3364 alt.conspiracy:9069 sci.skeptic:18175 Nntp-Posting-Host: tellab3 In article <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) writes: >... I have seen Venus many times. It appears to me as almost white, >maybe slightly yellowish very bright, larger than a star, and it has never >turned red, green, blinked, or come visibly closer to me... Take a look at it when it's just rising or setting. Although planets shine with a steady light, they can scintillate just like point sources if observed through a fair amount of convection. -- jcj@tellabs.com Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <91336.113622SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 2 Dec 91 16:36:22 GMT References: <422800007@peg> <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 71 In article <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) says: > > I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer > to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that > they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and, > if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders > and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark > asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by > astronomers (if it has been?). Can we say "reflected light from the sun"? I thought we could... > Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was > the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place > of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those > angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood > and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned > that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary > wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to > the lying wonders of the aerial beings. Quite right! Look what happened to Copernicus and Galileo! If only they'd listened... > UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the > creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before > the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of > the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the > UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the > past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of > these beings. Fanatic religious fervor is a real phenomena. The demonic beings who demand we send them our money so they can buy gold sparkplugs for their BMWs are a paradigm of our age. The effects they have on people are good evidence for the nature of these beings. > For your own sakes, give up your fantasies and believe that > these manifestations are nothing new, but simply a continuation > of the demonic manifestations which were easily understood by > our forebears who had a simple "unsophisticated" belief in evil. : So that's what the story of Goldilocks was all about! Oops, there were only three bears, the mystery continues... > That these manifestations are increasing in frequency is > a sign of our times and the foolishness of men who reject the > wisdom of the past. Prevent cancer, bring back the plague! Indulgences are papal too! My great-great-great-great-great-great-...-great grandmother went on the children's crusade and all she got me was this lousy burnoose! > The article "UFOs, a Shattering Assault" is available on > request. See also a very lengthy discussion of the history and > categorization of CEs in "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the > Future". The article "Religious Loonies: God's secret agents or Satan's jesters" is available on request. > Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is > approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great > "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you > to worship the being that arrives. Uh-uh! Better head for the hills! It'll be here in 3 days man and it doesn't look happy! "Do you BUUHHLEEEVE?" - Orson Scott Card Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!apple!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Dec02.172321.20447noring@netcom.COM> Date: 2 Dec 91 17:23:21 GMT References: Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5303 alt.alien.visitors:3366 sci.physics:15040 sci.skeptic:18182 In article ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) writes: >jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > >> You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it. Would you >> like to explain why? Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or >> something? > >I've sent mail to the fellow proposing the group. alt.sci already exists. >Use it to hang .physics.new-stuff on. Keep things simple. alt.sci does not exist at netcom. How many other sites out there do not have alt.sci? Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (510) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!catalina!marc From: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu (Marc Sabb) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: IN SEARCH IN ARIZONA... Message-ID: <3475@amethyst.math.arizona.edu> Date: 2 Dec 91 19:58:37 GMT References: <1991Nov26.132636.1@east.pima.edu> Sender: news@amethyst.math.arizona.edu Organization: Optical Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ Lines: 14 In article <1991Nov26.132636.1@east.pima.edu> 130hnunamake@east.pima.edu writes: >IM SEARCHING FOR ANY GROUPS THAT TAKE UFO'S SERIOUSLY IN ARIZONA. IF YOU KNOW >OF ANY GROUPS PLEASE SEND ME ANYTHING YOU HAVE... Me too, please. -- Marc Sabb INTERNET: marc@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu Optical Sciences Center VOICE:(602)-621-4099 University of Arizona Disclaimer:None Tucson, Arizona, USA 85721 Not opinions,observations! Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Nov30.163022.18392@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Nov 91 16:30:22 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de> <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 81 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3368 alt.conspiracy:9080 sci.skeptic:18192 In article <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) writes: >In article <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) writes: >> >> The description doesn't say anything about the weather. Planets may disappear >> behind clouds you don't see because of darkness, and Venus can be visible when >> there are no stars. > > The description did however describe the object as RED, dimming >occasionally and coming closer, then blinking to green, and a brilliant white >and dissappearing. > > I don't see what the weather or Venus has to do with this. I have seen >Venus many times. It appears to me as almost white, maybe slightly yellowish >very bright, larger than a star, and it has never turned red, green, blinked, >or come visibly closer to me. I fail to see how this persons observation can >be explained as Venus. Over the years, I've seen Venus attributed to just about _every_ major UFO sighting. So much so, that it's quite *predictable* that the skeptics will drag it out and try and lump every sighting into the vein of "oh..it musta been Venus..yea, that's the ticket!" While I admit Venus is _often_ mistaken for a UFO there is nothing in these GB reports to indicate Venus.. Consider the following recent UPDATE: ---Begin Included text------------------------------------------------------ Message #6257 - MUFONET Date : 24-Nov-91 12:42 From : John Hicks To : all Subject : Re: GB UFOs * Forwarded from "UFO" * Originally by Bert Close * Originally to John Hicks * Originally dated 22 Nov 1991, 19:50 John, MUFON investigator Gary Watson authored an article in the Nov. 15 1991 issue of the Islander (Pensacola, FL) in which he describes a UFO sighting that took place on Nov. 5. Of particular interest is that this time the craft is claimed to be the same type of UFO first reported by Ed Walters and others in 1987. Photographs, one of which is shown, were taken by Patti Weatherford and Ann Morrison who used a 440 mm lens and fast action 3200 ASA film. Watson states " the configuration of "portholes" and the very bright bottom "power" light resembles the outlilne of the UFO that Ed Walters described in his best selling book "The Gulf Breeze Sightings."" The photo connected with the article shows an object that looks very much like the "bottom" of an Ed-like craft with blobs of light above it making it look "crown-like." Also in a letter to the editor of the Gulf Breeze Sentinel (Nov. 14, 1991 issue), Don Ware wrote of his concern about the lack of reporting of UFO activity in the Sentinel since the newspaper was purchaced by Gannett over a month ago. He states that he believes 10 November was the 103rd sighting recorded in GB in the past year. He claims "the recent photographic evidence indicates the UFOs frequenting Gulf Breeze now are type-2 craft as photographed most clearly by Frances Walters on 26 Jan. 88. --- * Origin: Gourmet Delight (407)649-4136 Orlando, Fla. (1:363/29) ----End of included text------------------------------------------------------ Now *when* was the last time you ever heard of VENUS with "portholes"?? Off hand, I'd say that we have to rule out Venus as the "UFO"... :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs in Belgium Keywords: any books yet? Message-ID: <1991Dec2.025055.6594@bilver.uucp> Date: 2 Dec 91 02:50:55 GMT References: <1991Nov25.082556.9763@cbnewse.cb.att.com> <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> Distribution: na Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 34 In article <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) writes: >By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed >that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical >UFO? More fun ;-) Yep..that "UFO-proponent" is Don Ecker, who is a contributing editor for UFO Magazine. Don is also available via the ParaNet echoes and the ASK_UFO echo on the BBS side. The deep-space photo was taken from the Soviet Phobos II probe before it just disapeared. The particular photo he showed on Larry King wasn't even released openly to the public; it's my understanding that he had coaxed Marina Popovich to allow him to have the photo. I taped the segment, which lasted all of about 12 mins. Too bad Larry King had to keep rudely interrupting Don, because he was going to talk more on the details of the photo. Roughly, the long cylindrical object was measured at something like 15 km long by 5 km wide..that's pretty hefty! The photo showed the object approaching the moonlet Phobos. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm :-) Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona - Why did the JUSTICE DEPT steal PROMIS? /\/\ What is research but a blind date with knowledge. William Henry /\/\ Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!mv!ctedge!djk From: djk@CtEdge.Mv.COM (SYSTEM 0PERATOR) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: OFO conference? Message-ID: <3gs8BB1w164w@CtEdge.Mv.COM> Date: 30 Nov 91 04:39:49 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: NMS&Systems Engineering, Nashua, NH Lines: 10 Hi: I keep hearing about a 'ufo conference' in Vegas in December or therebouts.. Anyone have an accurate date? - I'll be going through there right about then. -djk --- Daniel J. Karnes / WA6NDT - POB 7007, Nashua NH USA 03060-7007 Djk@CtEdge.Mv.COM ...!DecVax!Mv!CtEdge!Djk Djk@CtEdge.UUCP The Cutting Edge: (603)888-9634 V.32 24 hrs. 'for TRUE hackers' Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!jabaru!tanus!bevans From: bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Krill File Message-ID: <346@jabaru.oz.au> Date: 3 Dec 91 08:36:04 GMT Sender: news@jabaru.oz.au Organization: People-Net [tanus], Melbourne, Australia Lines: 11 gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit >or should I just ignore it? > >Gary I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX" document. Brian Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!jabaru!tanus!bevans From: bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <347@jabaru.oz.au> Date: 3 Dec 91 08:36:06 GMT Sender: news@jabaru.oz.au Organization: People-Net [tanus], Melbourne, Australia Lines: 13 mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes: > >/* Written 6:49 am Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */ >/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */ > > Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is >approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved >by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ? Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the time? Brian Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!frnkmth!bill From: bill@franklin.com (bill) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: <1991Dec3.073711.935@franklin.com> Date: 3 Dec 91 07:37:11 GMT References: <1991Nov29.151949.10995@cc.newcastle.edu.au> <1991Nov29.170323.16741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Followup-To: alt.config Organization: Franklin Electronic Publishers Lines: 46 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5311 alt.alien.visitors:3373 sci.physics:15069 sci.skeptic:18204 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: : You're the first person I've seen posting an article against it. Would you : like to explain why? Or maybe we should just call it alt.galileo or : something? What's wrong with the proposed group is that most of the science I believe you think might belong there isn't science at all, but is instead the most incredible mish-mash of lack of evidence, bogus reasoning, and fake ego you've ever seen, mixed well with such idiot rationalizations as "but they didn't believe Galileo, either". People who put forth arguments like that have *already* demonstrated that their "science" is horseshit; if it weren't, they'd have a better reason why we should spend our attention on them than that lame excuse. To put it bluntly, if a theory can't pass muster in sci.whatever, it isn't science in the first place. (Though, passing muster there doesn't automatically make it science, either.) True, there's an awful lot of ideology and closed-mindedness in the scientific establishment, but the net isn't run by that establishment. There's no one here who will suppress your message by refusing to publish it and no censorship, either. On the other hand, there isn't any reason why anyone should pay attention to you. If you want something "scientific" and want those of us who know something about science to pay you any attention, then you have to follow the rules of science. This means things like controlled, publicly described, and reproducible experiments, and the other methods that the human race has developed over its history to weed out the fancy from the fact. But if you have followed those rules, then you *do* belong in the sci hierarchy, not in some alt.new-theories.science.physics ghetto. On the other hand, it may be that you aren't really interested in science, but in what might be called "cult science". Think of dianetics, parapsychology, the Dean drive, UFOlogy, much of what some people think of cold fusion, and other such things, which are better characterized by their sociology than by anything else. If what you want is a newsgroup where fringe science groupies can exchange their fuzzy-minded beliefs, that's fine, but please don't pretend that the content of the newsgroup will have anything to do with science. Followups have been directed to alt.config. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cc.helsinki.fi!reese From: reese@cc.helsinki.fi Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Krill File Message-ID: <1991Dec3.124324.1@cc.helsinki.fi> Date: 3 Dec 91 10:43:24 GMT References: <346@jabaru.oz.au> Sender: news@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Uutis Ankka) Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 16 In article <346@jabaru.oz.au>, bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) writes: > gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit >>or should I just ignore it? >> >>Gary > > > I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX" > document. > > Brian ... or the "Cleon" portfolio. jason Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 91 11:56:52 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 22 A while back, some guy posted a message saying we should all quit this UFO investigating, and get back to reality. Why? This is reality! Things are happening and we shouldn't just sit still and let them FLY by. Strange things are happening in our skys, people are being abducted, and the goverments are hiding something (we all know that). We deserve to know what's going on in our lands! What do you think? I probably sound a bit too wild (maybe?), but you all know there's something going on. Continue searching, the truth will come out sooner of later. Anyways, anybody got any good UFO magazines they could recommend to me? I don't want a magazine that's filled with spirtual New Age stuff, none of that. Just something with good solid concrete articals. Thanks people! Gary PS: Do you think big brother reads this newsgroup? BOO! =:) --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!unlimvis From: unlimvis@peg.pegasus.oz.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video available Message-ID: <422800009@peg> Date: 3 Dec 91 19:09:00 GMT Lines: 53 Nf-ID: #N:peg:422800009:000:2391 Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!unlimvis Dec 3 15:09:00 1991 **TWO NEW VIDEO RELEASES** FROM UNLIMITED VISION MOTION PICTURES PTY LIMITED PRODUCED AND DIRECTED BY CHRISTOPHER McILRATH ________________________________ AN HOUR WITH STAN DEYO THE CONTRAVERSIAL EX-US MILITARY RESEARCH SCIENTIST EXCLUSIVE 1991 INTERVIEW AUTHOR OF THE BEST SELLING BOOK "COSMIC CONSPIRACY" DEYO SPEAKS OUT ABOUT > UFO's and MAN MADE FLYING SAUCERS > GOVERNMENT COVER UPS > TESLA and FREE ELECTRIC POWER from cosmic energy > SUPER BEINGS WHO VISITED EARTH LONG AGO > 30 YEARS OF SECRET RESEARCH SEES THE LIGHT OF DAY NOW IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING ON PLANET EARTH ORDER THIS VIDEO TODAY... ____________________________________________________ ALSO AVAILABLE NOW - A ONE HOUR EXCLUSIVE VIDEO OF SECRET WWII GERMAN FLYING SAUCER DEVELOPMENT AND MANUFACTURE INCLUDING PROOF OF > 286 SAUCERS BUILT 1941-44 > PLANS, PHOTOS OF TEST FLIGHTS > AND INSIGHTS INTO THE MOTIVATIONS OF THOSE WHO GROOMED HITLER TO BE GERMANY's "LEADER" BY EXCLUSIVE ARRANGEMENT WITH THE WORLD'S OLDEST ORDER OF CHIVILARY, THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR ENGLISH LANGUAGE VERSION PRODUCED IN BYRON BAY AUSTRALIA --------------------------------------------------------------------- ORDER FORM: UNLIMITED VISION P.O. BOX 248 MULLUMNBIMBY NSW. 2482. or E-mail your order to: APC: peg:unlimvi UUCP: unlimvis@peg.pegasus.oz.au InterNet: unlimvis@peg.apc.org PLEASE FORWARD......... COPIES OF: ........... AN HOUR WITH STAN DEYO ........... GERMAN WW11 UFOS (@ $40 PER TAPE OR $70 FOR TWO) TO:............................................. OF.............................................. ................................................ POST CODE.............COUNTRY................... --------------------------------------------------------------------- ==> UNLIMITED VISION P.O. BOX 248 MULLUMNBIMBY NSW 2482 AUSTRALIA <== ===================================================================== Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!faatcrl!cciolori From: cciolori@faatcrl.UUCP (cciolori) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Date: 3 Dec 91 16:00:34 GMT References: Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ Lines: 33 gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >A while back, some guy posted a message saying we should all quit this >UFO investigating, and get back to reality. Why? This is reality! >Things are happening and we shouldn't just sit still and let them FLY by. >Strange things are happening in our skys, people are being abducted, and >the goverments are hiding something (we all know that). We deserve to >know what's going on in our lands! What do you think? I probably sound >a bit too wild (maybe?), but you all know there's something going on. Maybe you should have posted this to alt.paranoid. Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ? Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government conspiracy? How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ? Why does every allegedly abducted(via aliens) person say that the creatures that took them away did medical experiments on them? Just once, couldn't some aliens come to Earth, land in a populated area, introduce themselves, and then go out and watch football and drink beer? How could Dan Quayle have gotten to be vice-president? >PS: Do you think big brother reads this newsgroup? BOO! =:) MY big brother does. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <199496@unix.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 3 Dec 91 16:59:23 GMT References: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Sender: news@unix.cis.pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 62 In article <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> cciolori@faatcrl.UUCP (cciolori) writes: (me) First, let me make clear that I do NOT agree (as I've shown previously) with the fuzzy new-age mysticism that often flies about thick and fast in this group. That said, I have to correct some wrong impressions here... > Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look > just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ? Wrong order, my friend. J. Allen Hynek was one of the advisors for CE3K, and Spielberg's alien designs were done from the drawings and descriptions of a large number of people; they represent one of the major classes of "aliens" seen by witnesses in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (the classification, not the movie; Hynek, in fact, was the one who invented the classification, where First Kind is that the object approaches you closely [~500 feet]; the Second Kind leaves physical signs of its arrival [burnt branches, landing pad marks, etc], and the Third Kind allows viewing of apparent occupants of the alleged craft.) And the description of "occupants" is not limited to the CE3K sort; those reported range from the Flatwoods Monster to Valee's "hairy dwarfs". And to some types not easily classifiable. > Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government > conspiracy? It doesn't. Though I admit that the babblings on this group could lead you to that conclusion. > How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are > hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ? They don't. I have seen a UFO. I know quite a few people who have seen them. Many of those who have seen Unidentified Flying Objects are well-respected, educated professionals. I PERSONALLY know of a trained Air Force weapons specialist, an Army Intelligence officer, a medical research scientist, a physicist, an astronomer, and other highly educated people who have seen UFOs. The number of UFO sightings in the US is in the multiple millions. Discounting the vast majority as mistakes or wishful thinking STILL leaves a HELL of a lot that were seen by trained, professional observers. I happen to be an amateur astronomer myself, as well as a technophile, so I KNOW that what I saw was neither any atmospheric or astronomical phenomenon, nor any device that could be built by any technology *I* have ever heard of. > Why does every allegedly abducted(via aliens) person say that the > creatures that took them away did medical experiments on them? They don't. That just seems to be the fashion in the fuzzy contactee groups. The first incidents of this were Barney and Betty Hill, I believe. Other contact-related activity has been reported many times, ranging from simple sign-language talking, to sexual activity (no, I don't believe that, but I'll add it as a reported action), to the besieging of a house. You seem to have garnered your knowledge of the UFO field by reading this group. Bad move. Try some of the better stuff in the field, especially J. Allen Hynek's _The UFO Experience_ and Jaques Vallee's _The Humanoids_. Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (VALIS) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 91 12:12:25 GMT References: <1991Dec2.115817.11004@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK. Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5314 alt.alien.visitors:3379 sci.physics:15081 sci.skeptic:18217 ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes: > Gerry, What I said was the name is too long for THE TITLE LINE: > GROUP: <......group name.......> ITEM 99999 (Current Item Range #99999 - #999 > ----------25------------- > This is the case for many existing group names, > e.g. comp.binaries.ibm.pc.archives which truncates the current item range on > any 80 character VDU. Jim Schaeffer also noted this on his amiga. Here's a bijou clue-ette: Most of the people on Usenet are probably not running the same newsreading software as you. If your software has trouble with the overall length of newsgroup names, I suggest you get it fixed. All the software I use copes with group names of well over 40 characters with no problem, on an 80-characters-per-line VDU. > Poor net controls? No, poor software. I suggest you fix it, as the rest of the net is not going to rename groups to suit you. Go and read news.announce.newusers. mathew -- Another would-be Mac owner put off by Apple's monopolistic practices. Message to Kodak: Bring back Dan Bredy! Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs From: ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 91 17:03:40 GMT References: <1991Dec02.172321.20447noring@netcom.COM> Reply-To: ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5315 alt.alien.visitors:3380 sci.physics:15082 sci.skeptic:18218 noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > alt.sci does not exist at netcom. How many other sites out there do not > have alt.sci? The single newsgroup is alt.sci.astro.fits (don't ask me what the intent is). The last post was on 27 Nov. But the root group is in place, and should provide a base to build on: alt.sci.physics.u.name.it Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Krill File Message-ID: <31053@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: 3 Dec 91 19:25:03 GMT References: <346@jabaru.oz.au> <1991Dec3.124324.1@cc.helsinki.fi> Sender: news@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 In article <1991Dec3.124324.1@cc.helsinki.fi>, reese@cc.helsinki.fi writes... >In article <346@jabaru.oz.au>, bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) writes: >> gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >>>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit >>>or should I just ignore it? It was written by either Cooper or Lear. Some of it concurs, other parts are patheticly ridiculous. +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Peter Cook Quoth the Raven, "Eat my Digital Equipment Corporation shorts, man!" 200 Forest street Marlboro, MA. 01752 "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, 508-467-6936 welcome to the 90's where the government's Mystic Powers infoline: your mother!" - Scatterbrain 508-562-9516 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <13844@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 2 Dec 91 21:30:28 GMT References: <91336.113622SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <422800007@peg> <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 12 SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: ... > The article "Religious Loonies: God's secret agents or Satan's jesters" > is available on request. Please send me a copy. Or better yet, please post! Craig -- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- THEY LIVE Internet: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- WE SLEEP Austin: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com -- -- VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: alt.sci.physics.new-theories >> It's Created! Let's Post! Message-ID: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> Date: 4 Dec 91 00:14:18 GMT Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 76 Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15106 sci.skeptic:18229 alt.alien.visitors:3383 alt.config:5320 Hello everybody, After receiving a lot of valuable input (thanks everybody), I finally felt comfortable enough to ask my sysadmin to create this newsgroup (if you have any flames, direct them to me, not to him). I finally named it alt.sci.physics.new-theories . The main reason for this name is that it is hierarchical (though somewhat unwieldy); it would allow a whole range of other related and not-so-related newsgroups. It is also clear enough so newcomers can quickly discern what it is about. If your site has not yet created this newsgroup, tell your sysadmin to get going and get it created. Below is the original charter, which nobody seemed to want to amend. The CHARTER *********** The purpose of alt.sci.physics.new-theories is to discuss alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will be a forum where both the proponents and the skeptics can interact (hopefully in a civilized manner) to discuss these theories. Let me cite one example as to the value of such a newsgroup. For example, if one has come to the conclusion that many UFO sightings are indeed caused by extraterrestrial spacecraft (because of one's interpretation of the available evidence), then this belief may require new theories of physics to take into account the observed anomalous motion (not easily explained by our current understanding of physics) and to account for how such a spacecraft could navigate the distance from other star systems to ours in a reasonable amount of time. (I would not be surprised that many scientists reject the extraterrestrial spacecraft explanation of UFO sightings precisely because such an explanation does not fit into our current understanding of physics.) A small list of other things that could be discussed include: * What is gravity? What about Sakharov's conjecture? Is anti-gravity possible? * How do Maxwell's original equations compare to some of the approximations that have been used (Heaviside approximation) and what are the ramifications to our understanding of the universe. * Is it possible to derive energy from empty space? (There were a lot of papers submitted to this year's IECEC discussing this possibility, including some experimental evidence (which I admit is meager). Some of these papers discussed alternative theories of physics). Obviously truly fringe, but discussable in this newsgroup. * Is it possible to travel from one point in space to another point in space faster than the speed of light (on Star Trek they do it all the time by warping space itself- it must therefore be possible to do! :^) ). * Is time travel possible? * Cold fusion theories. * etc. If nothing else, this newsgroup should be very interesting: the proponents can have a mostly friendly forum to introduce their new theories (and I guess the skeptics can have a good laugh - careful skeptics, you may be outnumbered in this newsgroup). Enjoy alt.sci.physics.new-theories Let the posts begin >>> (I've already pointed some areas of discussion) Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (510) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 91 18:18:43 GMT References: <422800007@peg> <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 54 In article <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes: > I've heard Evangelical christians (esp TeeVee variety) refer > to an approaching object more than a few times. I think that > they probably believe it is Christ zooming in from heaven, (and, > if a reality at all, not AntiChrist who will come in wonders > and aerial illusions). Of course this object is not a dark > asteroid, but lightbearing or it wouldn't have "been seen" by > astronomers (if it has been?). Where are people *getting* these things? First it was the asteroid that's going to arrive next year (or was it SS434 or whatever that quasar was), now it's this thing (most likely a piece of a rocket) that's going to pass us on Thursday. > Perhaps its time to repost the fact (and the article which was > the 4th post on this group) that the aerial realm is the place > of activity of the fallen Lucifer (the light bearer) and those > angels who fell with him (demons). Their tools are falsehood > and illusion. The Fathers of the early Christian Church warned > that it was not a good idea to look often or with imaginary > wondering at the heavens, as it is possible to become victim to > the lying wonders of the aerial beings. Not to mention the fact that if you spend enough time looking at the sky, you'll eventually figure out that we're living on a planet orbiting the sun and not the other way around. For some reason the church didn't want people to know that. > UFOs are real phenomena. But they are a phenomena of the > creation of the illusory powers of the father of lies. Before > the space age, UFOs were not spacecraft - this is a product of > the paradigm of our age. The demonic beings (who occupy the > UFOs) are however very similar to the demonic archetypes of the > past. The effects on people are good evidence of the nature of > these beings. I agree that not all UFOs seem to make sense as spacecraft, and there's a strong occult element involved sometimes, but I see no reason to extend that to *all* UFOs, nor to speculate on a cause behind it. > Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is > approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great > "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you > to worship the being that arrives. It should arrive on Thursday unless there's *another* object. And why should God or Christ suddenly be concerned with providing scientific proof of his existence? It certainly hasn't been a priority in the past. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 91 18:24:17 GMT References: <422800007@peg> <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 21 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >In article <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes: >> Based on what I have been able to gather, this object that is >> approaching should arrive on about Christmas 1992. The great >> "Peace on Earth" accompanying this advent will cause most of you >> to worship the being that arrives. > >It should arrive on Thursday unless there's *another* object. And why >should God or Christ suddenly be concerned with providing scientific proof >of his existence? It certainly hasn't been a priority in the past. OK, I goofed (a little.) I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ instead of Antichrist. It doesn't blow my argument though. Give me proof that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow anything but my own free will. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!cluster!swift!peg!mcollinson From: mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <422800010@peg> Date: 4 Dec 91 00:38:00 GMT References: <422800007@peg> Lines: 19 Nf-ID: #R:peg:422800007:peg:422800010:000:551 Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!mcollinson Dec 3 20:38:00 1991 Message 60 (25 lines) From cdp!@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:E59401@TRMETU.BITNET Tue Dec 3 03:32 EDT 1991 >From CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:E59401@TRMETU.BITNET! Mon Dec 2 05:18:09 1991 remote fr om cdp.igc.org Date: Mon, 02 Dec 91 15:09:11 TUR From: cdp!TRMETU.BITNET!E59401 Subject: Re: Unknown object ? To: peg!mcollinson Hello, I've seen this report on a daily newspaper in ISTANBUL/ TURKEY.. But now I've found a satisfactory information about that subject on Netnews sci.astro, '1991vg' article. Thanks Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 4 Dec 91 14:49:35 GMT References: <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Indiana University Lines: 58 In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > >OK, I goofed (a little.) I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ >instead of Antichrist. It doesn't blow my argument though. Give me proof >that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow >anything but my own free will. > I suppose I wasn't exactly clear in my post - based on the misunderstandings (and some e-mail) I've seen posted. I can't answer your questions because I don't believe the TV evangeligals who are spouting this stuff. I am just a poor unfortunate who relishes watching the absurdities of Hal Lindsey's prophecies. It' snot only entertaining to me, but it is educational as well. I thought that maybe you folks would like the benefit of what I had gleaned from the tube. THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re- flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me), I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they, and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared in wonders from the sky. I belong to a much older Christian Church than the ones you all have attacked (rightly so) because of its abuses. I do not take your attacks personally because I know that my Church has not fallen prey to the western rationalizations and errors which you oppose. In your western materialism however, you have failed to even consider the spiritual truths of the advice of the early fathers of the Church wrt the spiritual beings (not the material order of the solar system, etc...) that occupy the aerial realm. I see no difference between the apocalyptic visions of the Evangelicals and the chiliastic expressions made by many of the proponents of UFOs as real material phenomena. I put both groups in the same category - deluded. I have as support for my view the collective wisdom of 'true' christian experiences - manyof which exactly parallel the UFO-esque appearances, but are interpreted not as little men from space (or as leprechauns or nature sprites or in Germany as "smurfs" or ......) but as man- ifestations of demons. You may, and likely do, disagree. You may even say I am the one deluded, as one e-mail did, but I can read in the lives of saints from the earliest times about your "aliens" and see that for thousands of years there is self- consistency in the understandings of these beings. Your imaginings and material explanations do not have the same strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con- trary to yours without being attacked. Given the limited number of pigeon-holes you all seem to be working with, I guess I'm not surprised which one you put me in. If you are going to sort people thusly, at least get more pigeon-holes - its a big world out there. Path: ns-mx!uunet!psgrain!onion!pail!bucket!ralex From: ralex@bucket.rain.com (Randy Alexander) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 91 09:24:30 GMT References: <347@jabaru.oz.au> Sender: usenet@pail.rain.com (USENET News) Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x Lines: 22 Nntp-Posting-Host: bucket.rain.com bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) writes: >mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes: >> >>/* Written 6:49 am Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */ >>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */ >> >> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is >>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved >>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ? >Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the >time? >Brian I suspect so, read sci.astro.. They mentioned a 30 mile diameter asteroid that is the smallest ever detected. They also said something about scientists thinking it were 'man-made' at first.. If it WERE something extra-terrestrial do you thing they would tell us? Randy Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 91 12:38:29 GMT References: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 10 > Maybe you should have posted this to alt.paranoid. Is there an alt.paranoid? Hmm.. maybe I'll ask my Sysop to subscribe to it. I guess I'd fit in very well huh? --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <2mqFcB2w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> Date: 4 Dec 91 12:41:00 GMT References: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 13 (I accidently hit 'S'ave on the last message, no way to erase or edit it) Anyways, I can't answer all those questions you posted. Interesting though. :) Another thing I've wondered about is... WHY are people being abducted and then having tests done on them. If the aliens (whatever) are so smart and advanced wouldn't they already of figured out the human body already? Hmmmm.... Gary --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: GB: Gulf Breeze Sighting. February 1991 Message-ID: <1991Dec4.155337.1920@rhrk.uni-kl.de> Date: 4 Dec 91 15:53:37 GMT References: <1991Nov16.195103.11272@bilver.uucp> <1991Nov26.143753.13479@rhrk.uni-kl.de> <1588@eskimo.celestial.com> <1991Nov30.163022.18392@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@rhrk.uni-kl.de Reply-To: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring) Organization: University of Kaiserslautern (Germany) Lines: 42 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3391 alt.conspiracy:9118 sci.skeptic:18238 In article <1991Nov30.163022.18392@bilver.uucp>, dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: [Robert Dinse's objections to my defense of someone else's interpretation of Jimmy Carter's UFO as Venus omitted; jcj answered this one already] >Over the years, I've seen Venus attributed to just about _every_ major UFO >sighting. So much so, that it's quite *predictable* that the skeptics will >drag it out and try and lump every sighting into the vein of "oh..it musta >been Venus..yea, that's the ticket!" They are just trying to take this possibility in account. If Venus has nothing to do with the sighting, one will find out later. To find out if Venus is responsible for it, someone has to think of it first. >While I admit Venus is _often_ mistaken for a UFO there is nothing in these >GB reports to indicate Venus.. What do you mean by 'mistaken for a UFO'? If it's unknown, and flying (you can argue this one), it *is* an UFO! Or are you saying 'UFO' and thinking 'spaceship'? [included article about an UFO-with-portholes sighting, no Venus mentioned] >Now *when* was the last time you ever heard of VENUS with "portholes"?? > >Off hand, I'd say that we have to rule out Venus as the "UFO"... :-) Because *this* UFO has portholes, *the other* UFO can't be Venus? Or is it the same UFO? (I lost track of the older postings) Or do you think that *all* UFOs have the same origin? (I intended to make a sarcastic comment about coherent thought here, but didn't) -Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy- ------------(thomas kettenring, kaiserslautern, germany)----------- --The human mind is too complex to understand for the human mind,-- --or, in other words, the human mind is too simple to understand--- --------------------------the human mind.-------------------------- -Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy-----Caddy- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <91338.113005SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 4 Dec 91 16:30:05 GMT References: <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 32 In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) says: > I belong to a much older Christian Church than the ones you all > have attacked (rightly so) because of its abuses. I do not > take your attacks personally because I know that my Church has > not fallen prey to the western rationalizations and errors which > you oppose. In your western materialism however, you have failed > to even consider the spiritual truths of the advice of the early > fathers of the Church wrt the spiritual beings (not the material > order of the solar system, etc...) that occupy the aerial realm. Well since the first people the Christians were mean to is the Gnostics and since they were the only real splinter group at the time, this would imply that you are a Gnostic. If you are a Gnostic, you must believe what got them all in so much trouble; that the resurrection was not a physical but a spiritual event and that it may not have even occurred. However, even if this is the case, it's Christ's message, not his magic tricks that were important. If not, then it sure sounds like you're a member of the same church many of us love to hate. In any event, which Church fathers do you admire? Paul the Womyn basher? Tertullian the gnostic smasher? Do tell... > Given the limited number of pigeon-holes you all seem to be > working with, I guess I'm not surprised which one you put me > in. If you are going to sort people thusly, at least get more > pigeon-holes - its a big world out there. Oh poop, you just said you're a member of a Christian sect which isn't corrupt like all the rest of them. So now it behooves you to reveal which sect this is... Scott Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec4.184901.22602@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 4 Dec 91 18:49:20 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 28 In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... > THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed > this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re- > flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of > either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me), > I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they, > and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many > of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared > in wonders from the sky. I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that appeared in wonders from the sky. Tradition holds that we tend to shoot first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more self control these days. In my own (humble) opinion, we would walk softly and carry a big stick.. we'd talk to them, communicate with them, ... but remain armed and wary during our dealings with them. I think perhaps you underestimate the people of Earth. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <1991Dec4.185053.22698@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 4 Dec 91 18:50:40 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 16 In article <2mqFcB2w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca>, gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes... >Another thing I've wondered about is... WHY are people being >abducted and then having tests done on them. If the aliens (whatever) >are so smart and advanced wouldn't they already of figured out the human >body already? Hmmmm.... > Only explanation I can think of, Gary... is that our evolution is being monitored. Now what do you suppose they are looking for? --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!vcsesu.enet.dec.com!cook From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <31123@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: 4 Dec 91 17:47:56 GMT References: <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Sender: news@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 24 In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... >In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >> >>OK, I goofed (a little.) I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ >>instead of Antichrist. It doesn't blow my argument though. Give me proof >>that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow >>anything but my own free will. >> One scientist back-tracked it's path and has determined it is a booster from one of the helios probes. So much for that. /prc +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Peter Cook Quoth the Raven, "Eat my Digital Equipment Corporation shorts, man!" 200 Forest street Marlboro, MA. 01752 "1984 has past, forget about Big Brother, 508-467-6936 welcome to the 90's where the government's Mystic Powers infoline: your mother!" - Scatterbrain 508-562-9516 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!mobdig!rtech!ingres!kevinq From: kevinq@ingres.com (Kevin Quinn) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec4.180340.2168@pony.Ingres.COM> Date: 4 Dec 91 18:03:40 GMT References: <422800007@peg> <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: kevinq@Ingres.COM (Kevin Quinn) Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501 Lines: 26 In article <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) rambles: [much stuff mercifully deltetd] > I don't at all recommend drugs!, but I think my experience in > the 60s with hallucinogens gives me a much better understanding > of the reality of illusions, their power, their effects, and the > shaping of new realities for the participant. Illusion is (in a > limited sense) reality. It is the reality of delusion, and we > all suffer its influence over us by the fallen nature of our very > existance. Knowing this, it is easier to make sense of UFOs and > also to not fall victim to the much more seductive illusions to > come. > Oh good goddess, Mark, go back to drugs and get a life! -- Kevin Quinn | kevinq@ingres.com | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com My opinions are my own. Should you think otherwise, think again. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Stan Deyo and UFOs Video a Message-ID: <1991Dec04.122512.4454@demon.co.uk> Date: 4 Dec 91 12:25:12 GMT Sender: news@demon.co.uk (C-News Owner) Reply-To: Codesmiths Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk Lines: 31 In-Reply-To: unlimvis@peg.pegasus.oz.au > [Stuff about Tesla, Nazi UFOs & the Knight Templars deleted] > > > ALSO AVAILABLE NOW - A ONE HOUR EXCLUSIVE > VIDEO OF SECRET WWII GERMAN FLYING SAUCER > DEVELOPMENT AND MANUFACTURE > > INCLUDING PROOF OF > > 286 SAUCERS BUILT 1941-44 > > PLANS, PHOTOS OF TEST FLIGHTS > > AND INSIGHTS INTO THE MOTIVATIONS OF THOSE > WHO GROOMED HITLER TO BE GERMANY's "LEADER" > > BY EXCLUSIVE ARRANGEMENT WITH THE WORLD'S OLDEST ORDER > OF CHIVILARY, THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR As my old Gran'pappy used to say; "Son, Never trust anyone who can't work their GODDAMN CAPS LOCK KEY" Andy Dingley dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk +44 91 230 1695 Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mars!near From: ulvna@near.mars (ulvna 'n armaaten) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec5.011503.15644@near.mars> Date: 5 Dec 91 01:15:03 GMT References: <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <31123@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Organization: ulvna 'n armaaten Lines: 40 In article <31123@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (Peter R. Cook) writes: > >In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... >>In article jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >>> >>>OK, I goofed (a little.) I read 1992 as 1991, and I inferred Christ >>>instead of Antichrist. It doesn't blow my argument though. Give me proof >>>that the asteroid is anything but an asteroid, and that I should follow >>>anything but my own free will. >>> > > One scientist back-tracked it's path and has determined it is > a booster from one of the helios probes. So much for that. > Boy, he sure screwed the pooch on that one. Sakes alive, you deflect one little asteroid to come back from Turkey Day down home on Venus, and everyone blows a gasket. Asteroids are sure a lot cheaper than regularly scheduled flights, but you just can't rely on them. Sometimes there's so many to choose from you can't decide which; large ones have enough gravity that you can catch some z's on, but they're pretty few and far between. The little ones can be a bit dicey, if you toss in your sleep, you can set up a tumble that wreaks havoc on your inner ears; well, not so much your inner ear as it is that your inner ear's telling you you're doing one thing, and your eyes telling you you're doing another. Puke city, man. But, that's the life of a college student trying to make ends meet. If I had more bucks, I'd just hop a saucer with sleeping accomodations. Hey, so tell me how my English is. After a year, I think I've about got it down. Those old Bonanza reruns sure had me going for a while, eh? Should'a seen the way everyone looked at me when I talked like that in the Student Union. Yee Haw. Well, gotta go. Finals next week, and then home for the Holidays. Maybe when I get back, I have a get together at Ken's Pancakes on El Camino. German Babies are mmh, mmhhhh, good. Later daze ulvna Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Krill File Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 91 17:47:47 GMT References: <346@jabaru.oz.au> <1991Dec3.124324.1@cc.helsinki.fi> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 16 In article <1991Dec3.124324.1@cc.helsinki.fi> reese@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <346@jabaru.oz.au>, bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) writes: >> gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >>>I read the Krill File, it was very interesting. Is this document legit >>>or should I just ignore it? >> I would probably treat it the same way as one should treat the "MATRIX" >> document. > ... or the "Cleon" portfolio. What's that? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 91 18:03:49 GMT References: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 30 In article <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> cciolori@faatcrl.UUCP (cciolori) writes: > > Why is it that the descriptions of most aliens seem to look > just like the fictional creatures in "Close Encounters" ? Maybe the aliens in "Close Encounters" were patterned after the real thing? > Why does every UFO sighting have to be part of some government > conspiracy? Not all of them are. > How come the only people who ever see these alleged UFOs are > hick farmers that look like they are from the movie "Deliverance" ? I could give you counter-examples but I'm afraid they would be most of the cases. Are you going to make generalizations all day or do you have something useful to say? By the way, I notice you're with the FAA. Don't bother telling us what you guys think of the Hudson Valley sightings, because I'm sure we all know. But what about the FAA spokeswoman who reported that a meteor was "flying back and forth" over New York City? I don't remember the date, but I'm sure I could find it and I'm sure other people remember it. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: How about alt.new-theories.science.physics ? (Was alt.physics) Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 91 18:07:54 GMT References: <1991Dec02.172321.20447noring@netcom.COM> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.config:5339 alt.alien.visitors:3401 sci.physics:15137 sci.skeptic:18247 In article ralphs@halcyon.com (Ralph Sims) writes: >The single newsgroup is alt.sci.astro.fits (don't ask me what >the intent is). The last post was on 27 Nov. But the root >group is in place, and should provide a base to build on: If I'm not mistaken, FITS is an image data standard like GIF, TIFF, etc. I don't know why it would be in the alt hierarchy, but it's not because it's off-the-wall. Probably it's because they didn't want to go to the bother of a vote to put it in sci. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!j0nez From: j0nez@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (J0nez) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Summary: no_kidding! Message-ID: <1991Dec5.104453.22161@uwm.edu> Date: 5 Dec 91 10:44:53 GMT References: <1991Dec4.184901.22602@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: The_Watchers_In_Milwaukee Lines: 13 No kidding (in regards to shooting first and asking questions later). Personally, I believe it's that asteroid (see sci.astro). But, geez, if it's a Christ (Anti- or otherwise) I hope they cap 'im in the knee cap, 'cuz he aint never done no favor for me (neither of 'em)! When _I_ have some kind of miracle miracled upon me, then I'll believe all this religious hocus pocus.... Until then, consider me a confirmed Atheist.... Heh.... A post for alt.atheism. Cool... -John William Bowman Replies, if any, to -> j0nez@csd4.csd.uwm.edu <- Bitchin' .sig, eh? Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <4864@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 5 Dec 91 14:09:58 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 17 In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... > strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con- > trary to yours without being attacked. If you don't want to be attacked then take your religious drivel somewhere else. This is the file to be attaked in and when it comes to religious clap trap I will be one of the main attackers. Especially self rightious puritanicle christian clap trap. One of the pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation of of Orion. Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH". Steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!kingpol!cs_a175 From: cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Date: 5 Dec 91 14:59:20 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@kingston.ac.uk (Network News) Organization: Kingston Polytechnic Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:5 sci.physics:15140 sci.skeptic:18251 alt.alien.visitors:3404 alt.config:5348 Nntp-Posting-Host: sappho Hi all, I just subscribed to this new group. I'm very interested in Physics although I'm doing Computer Science. All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. I heard a story about reflection using mirrors and the time that light takes to travel from a place to another and that seems it possible to travel in time but one needs MANY mirros, is this true ? Thanks in advance, Terenas, +------------------------------------------------+ | /--------------------------\ | | | Bart Got an Erection | | | |\/\/\/| / Bart Didn't Use Protection \ | | | | | Bart Got an Infection ! | | | | (o)(o) \_ _________________________/ | | c _) | / | | | '___| <_/ Don't be tough | | | / Don't be silly | | /____\ Wear a condom | | / \ on your Willy ! | +------------------------------------------------+ | Sergio Terenas |Email: cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk| | Kingston Poly | | | London - England| #include | +------------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!faatcrl!cciolori From: cciolori@faatcrl.UUCP (cciolori) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <2170@faatcrl.UUCP> Date: 5 Dec 91 16:02:38 GMT References: <2157@faatcrl.UUCP> Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ Lines: 16 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >By the way, I notice you're with the FAA. Don't bother telling us what you >guys think of the Hudson Valley sightings, because I'm sure we all know. Yeah, OK. I don't know of a single person at the FAA who has anything even remotely to do with UFO investigations. The FAA in a very large organization...maybe they do that stuff in FAA Washington. >But what about the FAA spokeswoman who reported that a meteor was "flying >back and forth" over New York City? I don't remember the date, but I'm >sure I could find it and I'm sure other people remember it. Like I know this guy, right? If you asked me who to talk to(at FAA) about UFOs, etc I wouldn't have the foggiest idea where to even start to look. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!unido!mpirbn!p515dfi From: p515dfi@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Daniel Fischer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <2576@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> Date: 5 Dec 91 11:28:09 GMT References: Reply-To: p515dfi@mpirbn.UUCP (Daniel Fischer) Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn Lines: 18 In article gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: >Anyways, anybody got any good UFO magazines they could recommend to me? >I don't want a magazine that's filled with spirtual New Age stuff, none >of that. Just something with good solid concrete articals. If you can read German, I could help you: There's a brilliant magazine in Germany, run by the CENAP, the Center for the Research into Strange Sky Phenomena, and called CENAP REPORT. It appears every month with sometimes 50 pages full of hot news, media clippings, field research and historical stuff. All 'branches' of the UFO field are discussed, even fringe areas as Crop (crap...) Circles, Abductions and so on. They also go into psychology at times, demonstrating that the CE III stories of our times are almost exactly the same stuff that make up the fairy tales of past centuries. I enjoy this magazine tremendously, esp. since it's run by only two or three people. Anyone reading this weird newsgroup with the need for more info? And in case you're interested but cannot read German: just get a handsome Pleiadian to channel it to you :-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!psinntp!nynexst.com!gene From: gene@nynexst.com (Gene Miller) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> Date: 5 Dec 91 17:06:23 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Sender: news@nynexst.com (For News purposes) Organization: Nynex Science and Technology Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:9 sci.physics:15148 sci.skeptic:18255 alt.alien.visitors:3407 alt.config:5356 In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: >All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting. (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?) -- Gene Miller Phone 914 644 2834 gene@nynexst.com Fax 914 644 2260 Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!star.dec.com!dipirro From: dipirro@star.dec.com (Steve DiPirro) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: 5 Dec 91 18:57:45 GMT Sender: news@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:10 sci.physics:15151 sci.skeptic:18256 alt.alien.visitors:3408 alt.config:5357 In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk>, cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes... > >All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Depends on what you mean. You can "see" into the past merely by looking at the night sky. You're witnessing radiation emitted in the distant past. You can travel into the future by accelerating yourself nearly to the speed of light. In your frame of reference, mere minutes or hours could equate to years to those at rest with respect to you. What's not believed to be physically possible is the travel into the past or physically effect the past in any way. If it were possible, you could then see something happen before it actually did happen. ------------ Steve DiPirro dipirro@star.dec.com --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro --or-- dipirro%star.dec@decwrl.dec.com ------------ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec05.191721.13109@convex.com> Date: 5 Dec 91 19:17:21 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Followup-To: sci.physics Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:11 sci.physics:15153 sci.skeptic:18257 alt.alien.visitors:3409 alt.config:5359 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> gene@nynexst.com (Gene Miller) writes: >In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: >>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. > > Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting. Yes, but remember, depending on their relative velocities, some will find that they may wait more quickly than others. ;^) Here is a (special) relativity quiz: You have a pretty good atomic clock with a huge digital readout. Your friend Joe has a similar clock. Joe flies past you at .9C (or do you fly past Joe? - nevermind). So, you decide to observe Joe's clock at 2 points along his flight path to determine if his clock is running faster than yours, or yours is running faster than his. Joe makes the same observation of your clock as he passes you. What do you observe, and what does Joe observe, and why? -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!graham From: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec5.015843.11705@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 5 Dec 91 02:57:31 GMT References: <347@jabaru.oz.au> Sender: news@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu Distribution: na Organization: Somewhere in Bloomington, Indiana Lines: 37 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu In article , ralex@bucket.rain.com (Randy Alexander) writes... >bevans@tanus.oz.au (Brian Evans Esq) writes: > >>mcollinson@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes: >>> >>>/* Written 6:49 am Nov 29, 1991 by E59401 in peg:sci.astro */ >>>/* ---------- "Unknown object ?" ---------- */ >>> >>> Nowadays (27/11/91) on newspaper I've read that an unknown object is >>>approaching to the Earth. And it was written that this object was obseved >>>by NASA. I just want to know that this news is true or not ? > >>Was that supposed to be that small asteroid the media was talking about at the >>time? > >>Brian > >I suspect so, read sci.astro.. They mentioned a 30 mile diameter asteroid >that is the smallest ever detected. They also said something about >scientists thinking it were 'man-made' at first.. If it WERE something >extra-terrestrial do you thing they would tell us? Of course not! In fact, they would (and I predicted this) tell us it is a small asteroid. :-) >Randy Jim Graham -> ->Disclaimer: I do not speak for my company. <- <- Neither do they speak for me. ______________________________________________________________________ | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | dolmen!jgraham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN BBS/ParaNet ALPHA-GAMMA (sm) (9:1012/13) | | (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |______________________________________________________________________| Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!nntp!elvis.nta.no!stein From: stein@elvis.nta.no (Stein Kulseth FBA) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.161301.22182@nntp.nta.no> Date: 5 Dec 91 16:13:01 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Sender: news@nntp.nta.no Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:13 sci.physics:15154 sci.skeptic:18258 alt.alien.visitors:3411 alt.config:5360 Nntp-Posting-Host: elvis.nta.no In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk>, cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) asks: |> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Yes it is possible, in fact, we all do it - every hour of the day +------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Stein Kulseth | stein.kulseth@forskning.teledir.no | | Norwegian Telecom Research | | | Box 83 | Phone: + 47 6 80 98 05 | | N-2007 KJELLER | Fax: + 47 6 81 00 76 | | NORWAY | | +------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ - Hverken undertegnede eller NTR tar noe ansvar for at noe som staar - - i denne artikkelen faktisk er riktig, fornuftig eller oenskelig! - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz> Date: 5 Dec 91 15:17:20 GMT References: <1991Dec4.184901.22602@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 28 In article <1991Dec4.184901.22602@engage.pko.dec.com> stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes: ]> ]>In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... ]>> THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed ]>> this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re- ]>> flection). THEY seem to think that it is a harbinger of ]>> either the return of Christ, or of the Antichrist. I (me), ]>> I say that whomever it is (if I thought it were real), they, ]>> and by virtue of the psychological bent displayed here, many ]>> of you, would worship any advanced intelligence that appeared >> in wonders from the sky. ]> ]>I think that they are mistaken... we Americans (regardless of most of our ]>psychological bents) are not likely to worship anything or anyone that ]>appeared in wonders from the sky. Tradition holds that we tend to shoot ]>first and ask questions later.... but we've managed to develop a bit more ]>self control these days. I don't understand this reference at all. What tradition holds that we shoot first and ask questions later? Americans are known for excercising incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions later?" Americans are the good guys. That's why, when they come, they'll come here first. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1732 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!dumpster!fdeck From: fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Date: 5 Dec 91 20:43:49 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> Sender: news@news.nd.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:16 sci.physics:15157 sci.skeptic:18260 alt.alien.visitors:3413 alt.config:5365 Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time travel. Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e. to travel faster than light? No. Is it possible to revisit the past? No. Is it possible to visit the future? What do you mean by "travel in time?" Francis J. Deck "c = 299792458 m/s" -- God Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu From: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <9044@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> Date: 5 Dec 91 20:57:07 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: usenet@bcm.tmc.edu Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visit Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:18 sci.physics:15158 sci.skeptic:18261 alt.alien.visitors:3414 alt.config:5367 Nntp-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu This is not relevant to alt.config so it is being removed from the followup. Please be careful of your cross-posting before letting an article go. -- Richard H. Miller Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu Asst. Dir. for Technical Support Voice: (713)798-3532 Baylor College of Medicine US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H Houston, Texas 77030 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!galois!cayley!jbaez From: jbaez@cayley.mit.edu (John C. Baez) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.192136.19854@galois.mit.edu> Date: 5 Dec 91 19:21:36 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Sender: news@galois.mit.edu Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:20 sci.physics:15160 sci.skeptic:18262 alt.alien.visitors:3415 alt.config:5368 Nntp-Posting-Host: cayley In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: > >Hi all, > >I just subscribed to this new group. I'm very interested in Physics although >I'm doing Computer Science. >All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Yeah - just wait. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!titan!lampard From: lampard@titan.trl.OZ.AU (Greg Lampard) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.221705.21223@trl.oz.au> Date: 5 Dec 91 22:17:05 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:23 sci.physics:15170 sci.skeptic:18263 alt.alien.visitors:3416 alt.config:5370 cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: >Hi all, >I just subscribed to this new group. I'm very interested in Physics although >I'm doing Computer Science. >All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. I heard a story >about reflection using mirrors and the time that light takes to travel from >a place to another and that seems it possible to travel in time but one needs >MANY mirros, is this true ? >Thanks in advance, >Terenas, Sounds like a load of bovine ordure to me. As far as Physics is concerned, time travel is axiomatically excluded. The only property that time has is that it passes. It passes at different rates for different observers, but it always passes. That is not to say that time travel is impossible, just that if it is, it will require a re-write of Physics that will make quantum mechanics and relativity look like insignificant tinkering at the edges. Greg Lampard g.lampard@trl.oz.au Telecom Australia Research Laboratories Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!amdcad!netcomsv!noring From: noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors Subject: What Theories Have Been Proposed About UFO Propulsion? Message-ID: <1991Dec05.185423.28501noring@netcom.COM> Date: 5 Dec 91 18:54:23 GMT Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:24 alt.alien.visitors:3417 Hello, To get this newsgroup jump started, I'd like to ask about what theories have been proposed for UFO propulsion under the assumption that many UFOs are actual extraterrestrial spacecraft from other star systems. 1) How can they navigate the distance in a reasonable time? Can they warp space, like we see in Star Trek? 2) How about their anomalous motion as seen on earth? They seem to go through extreme accelerative forces. They also seem to defy gravity. Anyway, I am fairly ignorant of what has been proposed in the way of testable theories. And this brings me to the final inquiry as to what experiments can be set up to verify such theories (e.g., Einstein proposed several experiments to verify his relativity theories). Jon Noring -- ============================================================================= | Jon Noring | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the | | JKN International | IP : 192.100.81.100 | caravan moves on." | | 754 Catalina Drive | Phone : (510) 294-8153 | "Pack your lunch, sit in | | Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101 | the bushes, and watch." | ============================================================================= "If you make $50,000 today, you have the same buying power as the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner; quoted in 1987. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!mks.com!fredw From: fredw@mks.com (Fred Walter) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec5.225120.27601@mks.com> Date: 5 Dec 91 22:51:20 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> Organization: Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:25 sci.physics:15173 sci.skeptic:18267 alt.alien.visitors:3418 alt.config:5373 gene@nynexst.com (Gene Miller) writes: > (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?) Not likely. The people who know what they're talking about are either writing papers about it, making money researching it, or hanging out in the sci.* and comp.* groups. fred -- G. R. (Fred) Walter, Mortice Kern Systems Inc., Internet: fredw@mks.com 35 King Street North UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!fredw Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA, N2J 2W9 Phone: (519) 884-2251 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Urantia Book Message-ID: <1991Dec6.002808.6540@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 00:28:08 GMT Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu I had some interest on the Cleveland UFOlogy Sig about a book containing information about Urantia. I remember reading about this earlier, but didn't think that it was important enough to download. Since then, it has scrolled off the bulletin board. If anyone has saved any of this information, please upload it to me so that I can pass it on to those who are interested in it. Even if you did not save any of this info, mail to me on your thoughts on the Urantia info would be appreciated. My job is to pass on infor- mation, not judge it. Dale B. Wedge Co-SySop Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy Sig Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck From: okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 91 00:29:44 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@cs.psu.edu (Usenet) Organization: Random, at best Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:27 sci.physics:15175 sci.skeptic:18268 alt.alien.visitors:3420 alt.config:5374 Nntp-Posting-Host: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel >in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we >gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 >MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time >travel. Not quite. If the speed of light were 55 MPH, then the Yugo and Geo would be terrible gas guzzlers. Mopeds wouldn't be much better. The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second. The speed of light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go. As something accelerates relative to you, it gains mass and time slows down for it. The Yugo would weigh many kilotons, and would pass through the speed trap with a severe discrepency between the speedometer and the cop's radar gun. (Yeah, just imagine the driver trying to talk himself out of _that_ ticket.) Meanwhile, the Geo driver would be trying to talk himself out of a stop-light violation because he had blue-shifted the red light to green. The trouble is, neither the Geo nor the Yugo will ever reach 55 (relative to the road surface) because its mass would be too great for its dinky little three cylinder engine to accellerate any faster. Light travels at the maximum limit because a photon has no mass. That's the fastest it can go, so it does. -- "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Corrupt Xref line!! 2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0) Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck From: okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 91 00:37:47 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@cs.psu.edu (Usenet) Organization: Random, at best Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:28 sci.physics:15176 sci.skeptic:18269 alt.alien.visitors:3421 alt.config:5375 Nntp-Posting-Host: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time". It explains the current theories in plain english, without a lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo. Not too many proofs, but if you're willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening. How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway? -- "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Corrupt Xref line!! 2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0) Path: ns-mx!uunet!ferkel.ucsb.edu!ferkel.ucsb.edu!jim From: jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.test Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 5 Dec 91 23:54:02 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.221705.21223@trl.oz.au> Sender: usenet@ferkel.ucsb.edu (USENET news) Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:29 sci.physics:15177 sci.skeptic:18270 alt.alien.visitors:3422 alt.test:11177 Hey, could you guys PLEASE learn how to edit the Newsgroups line and get this discussion out of alt.config? Jim Lick Work: University of California | Play: 6657 El Colegio #24 Santa Barbara | Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280 Dept. of Mechanical Engr. | (805) 968-0189 voice/msg 2311 Engr II Building | "On and on and on we go, where (805) 893-4113 | we're going we don't know" jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu | - Lilac Time Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.003608.7635@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 00:36:08 GMT References: <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 44 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu In a previous article, dipirro@star.dec.com (Steve DiPirro) says: > >In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk>, cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes... >> >>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. > >Depends on what you mean. You can "see" into the past merely by looking >at the night sky. You're witnessing radiation emitted in the distant past. > >You can travel into the future by accelerating yourself nearly to the >speed of light. In your frame of reference, mere minutes or hours could >equate to years to those at rest with respect to you. > >What's not believed to be physically possible is the travel into the past >or physically effect the past in any way. If it were possible, you could >then see something happen before it actually did happen. > >------------ >Steve DiPirro dipirro@star.dec.com > --or-- ...!decwrl!star.dec.com!dipirro > --or-- dipirro%star.dec@decwrl.dec.com >------------ > You don't travel into the future by accelerating near the speed of light. Your clock slows down while others on the planet that you left stays the same. That is why you could come back after a trip in a spacecraft near the speed of light to see an aging change. It has been proven that people that even take plane flights age more slowly than those that are on the ground. Of course, this time is not that much, but it does happen. I think that it safe to say that space travel hasn't happened since it would cause a paradox in time and events. You could come back and kill your father, then how would you exist? Unless, if you did come back and kill your father, all events relating to this event would be wiped from the masses, the entries into history, and therefore you never happened, even though you exist. Again, a paradox. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!keele!seq1.kl.ac.uk!csw18 From: csw18@seq1.kl.ac.uk (J.D. Lewthwaite) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel Message-ID: <1928@keele.keele.ac.uk> Date: 6 Dec 91 01:20:45 GMT Sender: csw18@seq1.keele.ac.uk Reply-To: csw18@seq1.kl.ac.uk (J.D. Lewthwaite) Distribution: alt Organization: University of Keele, England Lines: 24 Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> From article <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com>, by gene@nynexst.com (Gene Miller): > In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: >>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. > > Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting. > > (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?) Possibly not, but... I believe that I have seen - possibly in New Scientist _ an article a couple of years back on time travel. Apparently there are solutions to Einstiens (sp?) equations that allow time travel, but only under extreme circumstances. Could anyone verify this ? (Or maybe I'm having too many late nights). Cheerio, Dave. -------------------------------------------------------------- Don't belive anything I tell you, 'cos it's all rubbish. Dave is... csw18@seq1.kl.ac.uk, and proud of it. I may be ugly, but you're drunk and... er... damn. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: Date: 5 Dec 91 16:53:45 GMT References: <1991Dec2.151622.20112@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes: > > THEY (not me) say that there is something (a light) headed > this way from far off (beyond the range of solar light re- > flection). That's news to me. So far I haven't heard anything that's inconsistent with an asteroid. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!yanoff From: yanoff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Scott `The_Edge` Yanoff) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.062918.4650@uwm.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 06:29:18 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, WI Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:43 sci.physics:15187 sci.skeptic:18283 alt.alien.visitors:3426 alt.config:5381 In article okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > The trouble is, neither the Geo nor the Yugo will ever reach 55 >(relative to the road surface) because its mass would be too great for >its dinky little three cylinder engine to accellerate any faster. Now, if we had a Delorean that could make it to 88, that might just do it! ;) -Scott -- !\ /\ _/\_ yanoff@csd4.csd.uwm.edu _! ! ! ! !_ _! ! ! !_!_ ! ! !___ MILWAUKEE, ! ! ! !!_! ! !_ WISCONSIN Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!stl!dsbc!abw From: abw@dsbc.icl.co.uk (Andy Wardley) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> Date: 6 Dec 91 10:34:04 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: ICL Bracknell, UK Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:49 sci.physics:15191 sci.skeptic:18286 alt.alien.visitors:3427 alt.config:5385 In article okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero OK, call me Mr Thicky if you like, but what happens if a hypothetical train is travelling close to the speed of light. If you were standing at the back of the train and all the doors between the carriages were open, you could run towards the front of the train and your combined velocity relative to the ground would be greater than the speed of light. NO? Remember that we (The human race) used to say that the Earth was flat, man could never fly, and that no-one could travel faster that the speed of sound. I'm no expert on this and I'm sure that some of you may have convincing proof that the speed of light IS the galactic speed limit, but I reckon that one day, we may do it, and we'll all look back and laugh at how stupid we were to say it couldn't be done. After all, they do it on Star Trek and that's a true story isn't it? Cheers Andy -- ______________________________________________________________________________ _ standard disclaimer , ' Andy Wardley _ _ available on request... -o O- abw@oasis.icl.co.uk _ _ "You have pleasantly l _ _ wibbled my frusset pouch" _ "Go on Punk, make my lunch" _ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!netcomsv!payner From: payner@netcom.COM (Rich Payne) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec06.001615.12239payner@netcom.COM> Date: 6 Dec 91 00:16:15 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:50 sci.physics:15192 sci.skeptic:18288 alt.alien.visitors:3428 alt.config:5386 In article <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel >in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we >gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 >MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time >travel. The twins paradox does not involve time travel, but time dilation as one travels near the speed of light. You can get to the future slower, but you cannot get to the past, or just jump to some point in the future. >Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e. >to travel faster than light? No. Is it possible to revisit >the past? No. Is it possible to visit the future? What >do you mean by "travel in time?" > >Francis J. Deck >"c = 299792458 m/s" -- God Rich payner@netcom.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!atha!aunro!ukma!rutgers!mcnc!samba!tenney From: tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.143647.20826@samba.oit.unc.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 14:36:47 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> Sender: usenet@samba.oit.unc.edu Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:52 sci.physics:15196 sci.skeptic:18291 alt.alien.visitors:3429 alt.config:5388 Nntp-Posting-Host: cahaba.med.unc.edu In article <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> gene@nynexst.com (Gene Miller) writes: >In article <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: >>All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. > > Answer: Only forward, and only by waiting. Actually, I remember hearing that some serious theoretical physicist (I seem to remember an association with Wheeler, but could be wrong) had actually worked out a scenario for time-reversal in the presence of a very large rotating mass. The math was done for an infinitely long cylinder of extremely high density. This caused a bit of speculation about whether it was something that could show up in the vicinity of a pulsar. The mirror thing sounds sort of like one of those brain teasers, like "I can prove you're not here:" [rattle off a list of places that the other person is not] "So, if you're not in any of those places, you must be somewhere else, right?" "Right." "Well, if you're somewhere else, then you can't be here!" (I think that was Abbot and Costello) > (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?) I hope so. If I can find the reference for the rotating mass-thing, it might fit into that category. Or better yet, if somebody else knows it. >-- >Gene Miller Phone 914 644 2834 >gene@nynexst.com Fax 914 644 2260 -- Charles R. Tenney tenney@med.unc.edu | What would the UNC of Medicine | want with my opinions? What "My karma ran over my dogma." | would I want with theirs? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!nrcnet0!bnrgate!bwdls61!bwdls143!pww From: pww@bwdls143.bnr.ca (Peter Whittaker) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.142723.4408@bwdls61.bnr.ca> Date: 6 Dec 91 14:27:23 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: pww@bwdls143 (Peter Whittaker) Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 44 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:53 sci.physics:15197 sci.skeptic:18292 alt.alien.visitors:3430 alt.config:5389 Nntp-Posting-Host: bwdls143 In article <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu>, fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel Oooh boy, enough of these useless remarks please. >Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e. >to travel faster than light? No. Answer: we do not know. Current theory says only that it is impossible for a sub-luminal body to travel at light speed - there are no restrictions on travelling faster than light speed (how you make the jump from the sub-luminal to the super-luminal is your business :->). >Is it possible to revisit the past? No. Wrong. There is speculation involving wormholes terminated by black holes, and while the practicalities are prohibitive, the possibilites are interesting. Step 1: Find a black hole that terminates a wqorm hole Step 2: Find the black hole that terminates the other end of the wormhole Step 3: Drag one black hole around the other several times (without pinching off the wormhole) Step 4: Enter the black hole that you moved and emerge from the "stationary" black hole some time in your past. Going back to the original question: is it possible to travel in time (in the colloquially understood meaning of the expression)? Could be, we don't know, current physical/relativistic/cosmological theory does not preclude the possibility. Interesting note: some theories indicate that particles may influence the collisions that create them, in effect "informing" the "colliders" as to "how they should react" in order to create the resultant particle. In effect, the "effect" sends a message back through time telling the "cause" what to do. "Cause and effect" is a bit of a ghost. -- Peter Whittaker [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~] Open Systems Administration pww@bnr.ca [ ] Bell Northern Research Ph: +1 613 765 2064 [ ] P.O. Box 3511, Station C FAX:+1 613 763 3283 [__________________________] Ottawa, Ontario, K1Y 4H7 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!umn.edu!noc.MR.NET!gacvx2.gac.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!news From: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec6.085258.51@gacvx2.gac.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 14:52:56 GMT References: <4864@shodha.enet.dec.com> Reply-To: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Lines: 31 Nntp-Posting-Host: 138.236.10.27 In article <4864@shodha.enet.dec.com> writes: > > In article <1991Dec4.144935.8140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes... > > strength to me. Please allow me to have (and post) ideas con- > > trary to yours without being attacked. > > > If you don't want to be attacked then take your religious drivel > somewhere else. This is the file to be attaked in and when it > comes to religious clap trap I will be one of the main attackers. > Especially self rightious puritanicle christian clap trap. > > One of the pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that > this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation > of of Orion. Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to > view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH". > > Steve Steve, before you go accusing others of being self-righteous I think you should re-read your post. Your philosophy/beliefs on religion are just as much "drivel" as anyone elses. One thing about Usenet I find very disapointing is people like you who can't read someone elses opinion without flaming it. As none of this really belongs on this newsgrounp, send all followups to /dev/null. Ben Youngdahl Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eagle!tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov!dfm4989 From: dfm4989@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (Donald F. Martin) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <6DEC199110283007@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov> Date: 6 Dec 91 15:28:00 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:55 sci.physics:15199 sci.skeptic:18293 alt.alien.visitors:3432 alt.config:5390 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu>, fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes... >Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel >in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we >gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 >MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time >travel. > >Is it possible to violate the "first signal principle," i.e. >to travel faster than light? No. Is it possible to revisit >the past? No. Is it possible to visit the future? What >do you mean by "travel in time?" I always enjoy how "sure" physicists can be about theories until they are proven wrong. Let us say that based upon current theory we know of no way of traveling faster than light. Or for that matter how to traverse time. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <1991Dec6.160326.10719@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 6 Dec 91 16:02:58 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 In article <1991Dec5.151720.17404@anasaz>, billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes... >I don't understand this reference at all. What tradition holds that we >shoot first and ask questions later? Americans are known for excercising >incredible restraint. When/where did we ever "shoot first and ask questions >later?" Americans are the good guys. That's why, when they come, they'll >come here first. You're right, Bill. :-) I guess I was trying to point out that we're not likely to worship new visitors from the sky but to treat them as we treat everyone else... worship isn't on the list of appropriate responses however. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!pmafire! From: @pmafire.inel.gov Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.162004.4310@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 6 Dec 91 16:20:04 GMT Sender: J.B. Later Distribution: na Organization: WINCO Lines: 18 In article <1991Dec6.143647.20826@samba.oit.unc.edu> tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney) writes: >All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Yes, it is....BUT, you need a "flux-capacitor"! I happen to have a few that I would like to sell: 1ea. BTTF-1-FC1000F Time Machine Flux Capacitor $49.95 :-) jbl _____________________________________________________________________________ ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|| ||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA "jeffl@servprod.inel.gov"| "I have become || ||*"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, Where's My Lawyer!"* | comfortably numb" || || | Pink Floyd || | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt.edu!tjw From: tjw@pitt.edu (Terry J. Wood) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <102@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> Date: 6 Dec 91 18:11:32 GMT References: <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@pitt.edu Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:64 sci.physics:15205 sci.skeptic:18296 alt.alien.visitors:3435 Guys/Gals: Please take alt.config from the newsgroups line. Thanks! In article okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of >Time". It explains the current theories in plain english, without a >lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo. Not too many proofs, but if you're >willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening. I'd give this book 2 thumbs up too! He's changed his mind a bit, since writing the book, but it's still interesting reading given that even a layman can understand what he's written. > How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway? Last I heard he was living with "a lady friend". I don't know if he's gotten back with his wife or not. You don't see too many people at Dr. Hawking's level on "A CURRENT AFFAIR", but every once and a while they *do* make it to tabloid TV! ;-) Terry Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar!cats.ucsc.edu!macbeth From: macbeth@cats.ucsc.edu (Open Locks...) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <24922@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 18:11:11 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: usenet@darkstar.ucsc.edu Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:65 sci.physics:15206 sci.skeptic:18297 alt.alien.visitors:3436 alt.config:5400 What about the Einstein-Rosen hypothesis & the Klein solution to black- hole event horizons???? _______________________________________________________________________________ macbeth@cats.ucsc.edu | /\ /\ | Realism, n : Nature as seen through //\\//\\ | the eyes of a toad. // \/ \\ A C B E T H | // \\ ----------=====}=====O | --- Open locks "By the pricking of my thumbs, | --- Whoe'r knocks. Something wicked this way comes!" | Send my opinions to /dev/null. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!jlpicard From: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <14048@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 6 Dec 91 14:48:26 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:66 sci.physics:15208 sci.skeptic:18300 alt.alien.visitors:3437 alt.config:5401 cs_a175@kingston.ac.uk (Terenas S D M) writes: ... > All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. Probably not, but...you might want to check out the paper "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of of Global Causality Violation" by Frank Tipler, Physics Review D9, 2203-6 (1974). (It always impressed me that you'd need one _hell_ of a traffic control system around a Tipler cylinder... :-) Craig -- "She keeps a Moet et Chandor Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- In her pretty cabinet. Internet: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- 'Let them eat cake' she says Austin: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com -- -- Just like Marie Antoinette". VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.183824.14033@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 18:38:24 GMT References: <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 45 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu In a previous article, abw@dsbc.icl.co.uk (Andy Wardley) says: >In article okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > >> The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >>appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero > >OK, call me Mr Thicky if you like, but what happens if a hypothetical >train is travelling close to the speed of light. If you were standing at >the back of the train and all the doors between the carriages were open, >you could run towards the front of the train and your combined velocity >relative to the ground would be greater than the speed of light. NO? > >Remember that we (The human race) used to say that the Earth was flat, >man could never fly, and that no-one could travel faster that the speed >of sound. I'm no expert on this and I'm sure that some of you may have >convincing proof that the speed of light IS the galactic speed limit, >but I reckon that one day, we may do it, and we'll all look back and >laugh at how stupid we were to say it couldn't be done. > >After all, they do it on Star Trek and that's a true story isn't it? > > >Cheers >Andy > > >-- >______________________________________________________________________________ >_ standard disclaimer , ' Andy Wardley _ >_ available on request... -o O- abw@oasis.icl.co.uk _ >_ "You have pleasantly l _ >_ wibbled my frusset pouch" _ "Go on Punk, make my lunch" _ > I believe that in general relativity, lower speed limits you can add up velocities, i.e., if I was travelling 40 MPH and threw a ball forward at 40 MPH, the velocity would be 80 MPH. In special relativity, if I was travelling near the speed of light and lets say that I shined a flashlight that also goes the speed of light, the light would only go up to and not over the speed of light. The speed of light cannot be exceeded. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u27468 From: U27468@uicvm.uic.edu (Nancy Bulinski) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Hidden Aliens??? Message-ID: <91340.114451U27468@uicvm.uic.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 17:44:51 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Lines: 7 Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies being hidden by government authorities at some military installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years? What is this about? Can someone tell me, or give me a reference book that this supposedly came from? Thanks. Nancy (u27468@uicvm.uic.edu) Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jato!dave From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.194847.9509@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> Date: 6 Dec 91 19:48:47 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:75 sci.physics:15211 sci.skeptic:18302 alt.alien.visitors:3440 alt.config:5404 okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero >temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second. The speed of >light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go. Actually...this is the maximum speed that we can perceive anything going at. The medium we perceive in goes at this speed, anything going faster is imperceptable due to the same effects as are espoused in Nyquist's theorem. -- Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ames!elroy!dxh Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that the person almost never uses the word. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <4880@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 6 Dec 91 19:29:18 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 24 In article <1991Dec6.085258.51@gacvx2.gac.edu>, youngdah@nic.gac.edu writes... >Steve, before you go accusing others of being self-righteous I think you >should re-read your post. Your philosophy/beliefs on religion are just >as much "drivel" as anyone elses. Yes I do have somewhat of a religious viewpoint but at no time do I ever give my religious opinion as gospel nore do I claim to be privy to the only "TRUE" way of thought. I do not expect anyone to believe my religios thoughts and at the same time I expect critisim of these thoughts. However when someone comes online claiming to be a "PURE" christian I have no tolerance because they are close minded and self rightious and have a tendency to look down there noses at those of us who chose not to buy into there version of life and god. Now I cannot think of any of my postings where I come across as self rightious but if you have one which you consider to be in this catagory then let me know. Steve gotta go Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Somthing Heading this way. Message-ID: <6638@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 20:22:37 GMT References: <4864@shodha.enet.dec.com> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 16 timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) writes: | One of the pieces of drivel coming from TV Evangalists is that | this light/city is coming out of the North from the constellation | of of Orion. Funny in that when I turn my telescope on Orion to | view some of what it has to offer I have to look "SOUTH". Oh, come on, Steve! Don't debunk them just because they didn't say *where* they were located. They might just be *WAY* south of you... off the planet...drifting thousands of miles "below" the earth.... If this is the case, then they would have to look Earth-north. :-) -Brent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <6640@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 20:35:33 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec05.191721.13109@convex.com> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 31 swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: |Joe flies past you at .9C (or do you fly past Joe? - nevermind). |So, you decide to observe Joe's clock at 2 points along his flight path to |determine if his clock is running faster than yours, or yours is running |faster than his. Joe makes the same observation of your clock as he passes |you. |What do you observe, and what does Joe observe, and why? Steve, here's a guess: (It's been awhile since I've had relativistic anything) Since it doesn't matter who flies past who, I'll assume I'm stationary and Spaceman Joe flies past me. Say joe starts next to me and blasts off, instantaneously achieving .9c. (We'll ignore his brains on the back wall.) As Joe flies away, his clock "slows" down. This is because as he flies away at almost the speed of light, the photons from his clock still need to come back to me. But the distance they need to travel to reach me is constantly increasing, so there is a longer delay between each successive minute. Similarly, Joe thinks I blasted away from him in reverse at .9c, and that my clock is slowing down. However, Joe's clock runs fine for him and my clock runs fine for me. -Brent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!paladin.american.edu!auvm!ghadsal From: GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <91340.155601GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 20:56:01 GMT References: <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Dec6.003608.7635@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Organization: The American University - University Computing Center Lines: 4 Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation? Is this stil l a theory? Guy Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sr3h+ From: sr3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Andrew Rahe) Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 91 20:58:36 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15216 sci.skeptic:18308 alt.alien.visitors:3445 alt.config:5411 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:82 In-Reply-To: <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> In article <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> abw@oasis.icl.co.uk (Andy Wardley) writes: > Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat, > man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed > of sound... Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the masts of ships appeared first on the horizon. The statement that Columbus proved "the Earth was round" is grossly inaccurate. The Phoenicians knew better. The Greeks believed that it would be possible to fly (the myth of Deadeus (sp.?), and his son, Icarus, who melted his "wings" by flying too close to the sun.) The speed of light is nothing like the speed of sound. The very nature of the speed of light makes it impossible to travel faster, just like how nothing can be cooled below absolute zero, where all molecular activity ceases. Traveling faster than c is not a structural problem (like the speed of sound), but a violation of the laws of physics. Don't compare apples and oranges; they ain't the same... Steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!zeus.tamu.edu!dwr2560 From: dwr2560@zeus.tamu.edu (RING, DAVID WAYNE) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <6DEC199116282302@zeus.tamu.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 21:28:00 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:89 sci.physics:15219 sci.skeptic:18311 alt.alien.visitors:3446 alt.config:5414 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu>, fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes... > > > >"c = 299792458 m/s" -- God > > More likely: "c = 1" -- God "s = 299792458 m" -- Bureau of Standards D Ring (dwr2560@zeus.tamu.edu) Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!psuvax1!psuvax1!okunewck From: okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 91 22:34:19 GMT References: <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <1991Dec6.194847.9509@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> Sender: news@cs.psu.edu (Usenet) Organization: Random, at best Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:90 sci.physics:15220 sci.skeptic:18312 alt.alien.visitors:3447 alt.config:5415 Nntp-Posting-Host: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes: >okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > >> The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >>appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero >>temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second. The speed of >>light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go. > >Actually...this is the maximum speed that we can perceive anything >going at. The medium we perceive in goes at this speed, anything >going faster is imperceptable due to the same effects as are >espoused in Nyquist's theorem. The problem is, if we can't perceive an object travelling at FTL velocities, we can't prove that this object actually exists. We can theoritize on its behavior, just as we can mathematically calculate properties of frequencies below zero hertz (using imaginary numbers). But since these particles are imperceptable to us, then they don't exist in our universe. There is also no other known universe for them to exist in. So as far as we can tell, FTL objects don't exist. Theoretically, tachyons can exist. The unanswerable question remains, do they exist? What was before the Big Bang? What will be after the Big Crunch? The world may never know. -- "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Corrupt Xref line!! 2197 --> sci.phys.skateboarding(1..0) Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!hubcap!taylors From: taylors@hubcap.clemson.edu (C. Taylor Sutherland III) Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.223327.482@hubcap.clemson.edu> Date: 6 Dec 91 22:33:27 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> Organization: Clemson University Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15221 sci.skeptic:18313 alt.alien.visitors:3448 alt.config:5416 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:91 Maybe it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, so we have to find someway of getting places without actually moving, in real space, that is. Or we could figure out someway to reduce our mass as a function of increasing speed. As a warp field :) -- + The ___ __ + I am the terror that flaps in the night. + | /_ /__) | I am the power surge that fries your | | / ly /__)oy | terminal. | + taylors@hubcap.clemson.edu + I am Darkwing Duck! + Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jato!dave From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.231647.11026@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> Date: 6 Dec 91 23:16:47 GMT References: <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <1991Dec6.194847.9509@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:95 sci.physics:15222 sci.skeptic:18314 alt.alien.visitors:3449 alt.config:5418 okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: > The problem is, if we can't perceive an object travelling at FTL >velocities, we can't prove that this object actually exists. We can >theoritize on its behavior, just as we can mathematically calculate >properties of frequencies below zero hertz (using imaginary numbers). We can't prove that it doesn't exist either. All we can say is that we don't know. -- Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ames!elroy!dxh Self justification is worse than the the original transgression. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!sti.com!alaric From: alaric@sti.com (The Renaissance Man) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec7.023059.13737@sti.com> Date: 7 Dec 91 02:30:59 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: alaric@sti.com (Phil Stracchino) Organization: Software Transformation Inc. Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:107 sci.physics:15230 sci.skeptic:18320 alt.alien.visitors:3450 alt.config:5423 In article , okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: ] ] BTW, I highly recommend Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of ] Time". It explains the current theories in plain english, without a ] lot of mathematical mumbo jumbo. Not too many proofs, but if you're ] willing to accept his word on things then it can be very enlightening. Maybe my trouble is I'm not willing to just accept his word on things - particularly some of the wilder and more unsubstantiated assumptions he starts making in the closing chapters of the book. I found the book as a whole to be quite interesting, but the last couple of chapters to be disappointing in the extreme. Hawking is a brilliant astrophysicist, but I wish he'd stop pretending to be a cosmologist as well. ] How's Professor Hawking doing these days, anyway? Last I heard, his condition had basically stabilized. Which is not great; but could be a lot worse. Here's hoping he lives long enough for a cure... -- "Talk is cheap. Photon torpedoes cost money." - Mike the Mundane /| | | The Renaissance Man is... / | | __ _ ^ __ | Alaric of Carrowlea Alaric of Dare /__| | / \ |/ \ | / | Phil V. Stracchino Alaric@sti.com / | | \_/| | | \__ | (among others) -- Just when you thought it was s-s-s-safe to go back on the n-n-n-network... The return of MMMMMAX HEADCRASH!!!!! Path: ns-mx!uunet!coplex!plex!chuck From: chuck@coplex.com (Chuck Sites) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec7.043900.11123@coplex.com> Date: 7 Dec 91 04:39:00 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> Organization: Copper Electronics, Inc. Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:117 sci.physics:15234 sci.skeptic:18326 alt.alien.visitors:3451 alt.config:5426 Yawh.. Well, It is possible to observe the past. It's impossible to to interact with the past though. Can one observe the future? Well, unfortunaly, time is dimensionally incomplete. That is, while it has forward direction, it doesn't have a reverse. So while one can stretch the imaginary distance between the end point of the time ray, and the arrow point of the ray, what we call the speed of light, beyond either end point nothing exists. So if someone tell you time is the 4th dimension. Tell them that's not quite right. It really is dimensionaly incomplete. QED. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: What Theories Have Been Proposed About UFO Propulsion? Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 91 18:45:07 GMT References: <1991Dec05.185423.28501noring@netcom.COM> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 46 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:120 alt.alien.visitors:3452 In article <1991Dec05.185423.28501noring@netcom.COM> noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: > >1) How can they navigate the distance in a reasonable time? Can they > warp space, like we see in Star Trek? According to Bob Lazar they can, but I'm not sure if his theory works. He says they have a powerful gravity generator on board (I won't even go into that) and they just grab the point they want to travel to, pull it to them, and then let go and snap back with it. Question 1: gravity would have to be instantaneous. It isn't, is it? Problem 2: would anyone else notice (to put it mildly) the immense distortion of space? >2) How about their anomalous motion as seen on earth? They seem to go > through extreme accelerative forces. They also seem to defy > gravity. I know someone who has a theory based on the alleged discoveries of John Keely, but I'm not a Keely expert so I can't explain it very well. But if Keely's theories are true, the flying object would behave independently of the Earth's gravity and inertia. (Needless to say, Keely's theories are pretty radical.) >Anyway, I am fairly ignorant of what has been proposed in the way of >testable theories. And this brings me to the final inquiry as to what >experiments can be set up to verify such theories (e.g., Einstein >proposed several experiments to verify his relativity theories). Testable? Nothing as far as the more extreme behavior of the phenomenon is concerned. (Unless you happen to have a saucer handy, like Lazar says his former employer did.) I have a text file giving a design for an electromagneticly propelled saucer. The concept supposedly dates clear back to Tesla. I might post it if I can get a feed of the alt.sci.physics.new-theories group. Also, is anyone familiar with the Biefeld-Brown effect? Granted, Brown never produced anything that had a built-in power supply as far as I know, but the effect itself might be appropriate for this group. (Someone once told me that Brown's saucers were free of acceleration effects, but I have no idea where he got this idea. Can anyone verify?) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!reed!news From: mjeffery@reed.edu (Mark Jefferys) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec7.092606.5533@reed.edu> Date: 7 Dec 91 09:26:06 GMT References: <1991Dec06.001615.12239payner@netcom.COM> Sender: news@reed.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: mjeffery@reed.edu Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:122 sci.physics:15240 sci.skeptic:18337 alt.alien.visitors:3454 PLEASE -- Remove "alt.config" from the Newsgroups: line. "Time Travel - My First Posting" articles are showing up in alt.config -- it needs everyone's active participation to eliminate. When you reply to an article, please fix it so that the article goes only to "alt.sci.physics.new-theories". This will also help to clear up the other groups which are getting these articles. Anyone who's interested in the discussion can follow it there. Thank you. --- Mark Jefferys Internet: mjeffery@reed.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!manuel!coombs!joshua From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 91 10:18:03 GMT References: <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University Lines: 28 atmadc@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: |> Dear all, |> I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this, |> but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full |> news. Commendable. |> I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from |> Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien |> civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it |> is my duty to make the full facts known. Please do so, then. |> I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened |> and I really don't know what to do. |> Please, does anybody know what to do? Well, if you are frightened that the MIBs are going to come and get you, you have already given them enough information to track you down and do the nasty on you. So you might as well post the full details to the net. That way, at least, if you mysteriously disappear without a trace or have an accident some of us will know what is up..... josh Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!alexo From: alexo+@cs.cmu.edu (Alex Orenshteyn) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec07.180608.61081@cs.cmu.edu> Date: 7 Dec 91 18:06:08 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: alexo@n3.sp.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:139 sci.physics:15245 sci.skeptic:18340 alt.alien.visitors:3456 alt.config:5436 Nntp-Posting-Host: n3.sp.cs.cmu.edu In article <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel >in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we >gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 >MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time >travel. > If speed of light were 55 MPH our biological processes would be so slow that we still would not notice any time dilation in every day life. Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440 From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec7.203324.14028@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Date: 7 Dec 91 20:33:24 GMT References: <91340.155601GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu> <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Sender: news@usenet.ins.cwru.edu Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 12 Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns5.ins.cwru.edu In a previous article, GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu () says: >Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation? Is this stil >l a theory? > >Guy > > No Guy, it is not a theory, it is bunk! Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!cuuxb!tellab5!vpnet!lisbon From: lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec06.153651.29931@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: 6 Dec 91 15:36:51 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <1991Dec06.001615.12239payner@netcom.COM> Organization: Vpnet Public Access Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:158 sci.physics:15253 sci.skeptic:18348 alt.alien.visitors:3458 Can you folks please edit your Newsgroups line in this thread? It is particularly inappropriate in alt.config! -- ============================================================================ | Help stamp out stupid .signature files! Gerry Swetsky WB9EBO | | vpnet - Public access Unix and Usenet | | Home (708)833-8122 vpnet (708)833-8126 lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us | ============================================================================ Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!anasaz!qip!morris From: morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> Date: 6 Dec 91 20:18:29 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:165 sci.physics:15257 sci.skeptic:18349 alt.alien.visitors:3459 alt.config:5443 In article okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes: >fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >>Yes... it's possible. > > Not quite. > > The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero >temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second. The speed of >light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go. > Notice, however, that the experiments that demonstrated that the speed of light is a limit were based on accelerating a charged particle with electric and magnetic fields. As the speed increased, the mass increased such that the mass becomes infinite at C. Did these experiments prove that it is impossible to exceed C, or did they only prove that it is impossible to exceed C with charged particles, electric and magnetic fields? What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C? (If math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff" moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to accomplish). I don't have the exact citations, but if anybody's interested, let me know and I'll do some research. "The speed of light: it's not just a good idea, it's the law [maybe]" Bob Morris morris@anasaz.UUCP Quoting out of context for fun and profit: My opinions only, of course... "Congress shall make no law" anasaz!morris@asuvax.eas.asu.edu --United States Constitution Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!corton!imag!ambone From: ambone@imag.fr (Ambone Gilles) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - Just do it ? Message-ID: <28469@imag.imag.fr> Date: 6 Dec 91 11:26:14 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.225120.27601@mks.com> Sender: news@imag.imag.fr Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France Lines: 35 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:168 sci.physics:15259 sci.skeptic:18351 alt.alien.visitors:3460 alt.config:5445 Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost Hi, I just read differents reflexions about time travel, and I think precisions must be done. Einstein's theory explain that time is a dimension a the three others ones. Each dimension could be mesured, but the RESULT of the measurement depends of the relative difference between the speed of the object mesured and the speed of the author of the measurement. For example, one getting the size of a cube mesuring 1m x 1m x 1m runnig near light speed, might found that this cube measures 1.1 m x 1 m x 1 m ! The size of this cube had never changed. The cube can go through a window of size 1.05 x 1.05. To proove it, just imagine that the cub couldn't do that. If you are on the cube and measure it, you will find 1 m x 1 m x 1m because you have the same speed that it. So the cube had to known the difference of speed between it and the window, then change his own size to not fit in the window ! It's certainly a very clever cube ! Now return to the more abstract dimension : the Time. Whatever was your speed, Time will evoluate as the same way, because Time is a dimension like other. Only measurements are differents. So we could not travel in future by speed. in "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking explains others dimensions than the 4 known dimensions, might exist, and if so, could be used as short cut to join others points, and so others times. Unfortunately, if this new dimensions exist, there are curled and so not usables. We can't go to futur or past, by present is beautiful, isn't it ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry for my poor english language, it would be better ... in the future ! ambone@imag.imag.fr Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+ From: dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 8 Dec 91 04:47:11 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> Organization: Masters student, Mechanical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:169 sci.physics:15260 sci.skeptic:18354 alt.alien.visitors:3461 alt.config:5447 In-Reply-To: <1991Dec6.201829.15795@anasaz> > >What about the "stuff" ejected from Supernova 1987A that was observed >at time t0 and later at time t1 at a distance d > (t1-t0) * C? (If >math is not your strong point, this simply means that the "stuff" >moved a distance in a time that required speeds greater than C to >accomplish). > This is not necessarily so. If matter is moving almost on a direct line towards or away from you at near-C speeds, it can _appear_ to be moving faster than light, although once relativistic effects are taken into account the super- luminal speeds go away. As I recall, DISCOVER magazine did a short piece on some stuff that was seeming to be super-luminal a few years back. Explained it real well! And in my Physics class we also went over it - back when I was a Physics major. David Hunt Grad Student, Mechanical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University ======================================================== My mind is my own, so are my ideas and opinions. My heart, body, and soul, however, all belong to others. What's the difference between a catfish and a laywer? One's a slimy scum-sucking bottom feeder. The other's a fish! Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!mcdchg!tellab5!vpnet!lisbon From: lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us (Gerry Swetsky) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec07.135136.16257@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: 7 Dec 91 13:51:36 GMT References: <1991Dec7.023059.13737@sti.com> Organization: Vpnet Public Access Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:173 sci.physics:15261 sci.skeptic:18355 alt.alien.visitors:3462 PLEASE GET THIS OUT OF ALT.CONFIG!!!! Thank you. -- ============================================================================ | Help stamp out stupid .signature files! Gerry Swetsky WB9EBO | | vpnet - Public access Unix and Usenet | | Home (708)833-8122 vpnet (708)833-8126 lisbon@vpnet.chi.il.us | ============================================================================ Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!mips!apple!amdcad!netcomsv!ekman From: ekman@netcom.COM (Donald E. Ekman) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec07.210037.7752ekman@netcom.COM> Date: 7 Dec 91 21:00:37 GMT References: <91340.155601GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu> <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <1991Dec7.203324.14028@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 21 In article <1991Dec7.203324.14028@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) writes: > >In a previous article, GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu () says: > >>Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation? Is this stil >>l a theory? >> >>Guy >> >> > >No Guy, it is not a theory, it is bunk! There's an interesting article by Arthur C. Clarke in the January 1992 issue of Playboy in which he points out the bandwidth requirements for transmitting all of the requisite information. Not likely to happen this week, I fear. Don -- .signature on file Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 91 18:01:01 GMT References: <31210@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <91340.155601GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:3464 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:174 In article <91340.155601GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu> GHADSAL@auvm.american.edu writes: >Okay, time travel is being debated, but what about teleportation? Is this stil >l a theory? In the psychic field there are rare reports of bilocation (being visible in two places at once) and teleportation, but the evidence is only anecdotal. In the physics field, the evidence is also only anecdotal and concerns the Navy accidentally teleporting a ship while trying to make it invisible. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!think.com!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens??? Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 91 18:10:00 GMT References: <91340.114451U27468@uicvm.uic.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 22 In article <91340.114451U27468@uicvm.uic.edu> U27468@uicvm.uic.edu (Nancy Bulinski) writes: >Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies >being hidden by government authorities at some military >installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years? What The Roswell UFO crash occurred in 1947, with some lesser-known ones also occurring about that time. The alleged bodies were allegedly taken to Wright-Patterson AFB. The latest book on the case is "UFO Crash At Roswell" by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt. There's a book by Bill Moore from about ten years ago, too. There's also a movie (partly fictional, I think) called "Hangar 18". (Which was also the name of a recent song by Megadeth, but they don't have a lot to say.) In recent years, there have been highly sensational stories floating around the UFO field and various networks concerning working spaceships and live aliens at secret installations in the Nevada area. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 91 17:52:30 GMT References: <1991Dec04.001418.16046noring@netcom.COM> <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec6.143647.20826@samba.oit.unc.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:175 sci.physics:15263 alt.alien.visitors:3466 In article <1991Dec6.143647.20826@samba.oit.unc.edu> tenney@med.unc.edu (Charles R. Tenney) writes: >> (Is anything intelligent going to be discussed here?) > >I hope so. If I can find the reference for the rotating mass-thing, it >might fit into that category. Or better yet, if somebody else knows it. Frank Tipler. Now, how do we build one? :-) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!cognos!alzabo!latour!mcr From: mcr@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca (Michael Richardson) Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config,alt.sci.physics.new-theories Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec7.210018.777@Sandelman.OCUnix.on.ca> Date: 7 Dec 91 21:00:18 GMT References: <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: Sandelman Software Works, Debugging Department, Ottawa, ON Lines: 44 Xref: ns-mx sci.physics:15266 sci.skeptic:18358 alt.alien.visitors:3467 alt.config:5451 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:177 The original article was posted to: sci.physics alt.config sci.skeptic alt.alien.visitors alt.sci.physics.new-theories Since alt.sci.physics.new-theories has been newgroup'ed please remove sci.physics and alt.config from this list. I don't care about alt.alien.visitors, since I don't think that group even exists around these parts. The sci.skeptic people can make their own statement. Please note Followup-To: In article sr3h+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Andrew Rahe) writes: >In article <305@dsbc.icl.co.uk> abw@oasis.icl.co.uk (Andy Wardley) writes: >> Remember that we used to say that the Earth was flat, >> man could never fly, and that no one could travel faster than the speed >> of sound... > Actually, sailors always knew that the Earth was spherical, since the >masts of ships appeared first on the horizon. The statement that >Columbus proved "the Earth was round" is grossly inaccurate. The I really hope that physics.new-theories doesn't go around and around this thread forever. You can pick up enough physics to understand c from a couple of John Gibbons books if sf books weren't enough. I had no problems Amit Goswami's ``Cosmic Dancers'' when I was 12. I won't be surprised to see lots of cross-posts with rec.arts.startrek regarding Warp shells, but to discuss a ``new-theory'' implies some knowledge of the old ones. >than c is not a structural problem (like the speed of sound), but a >violation of the laws of physics. Don't compare apples and oranges; I'd describe it as a violation of the assumptions upon which modern and particle physics is built. -- :!mcr!: | The postmaster never | So much mail, Michael Richardson | resolves twice. | so little time. HOME: mcr@sandelman.ocunix.on.ca Bell: (613) 237-5629 SCHOOL: 192228@physics.carleton.ca Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!dusty From: dusty@abode.ttank.com (Dusty Garza) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS Message-ID: <1991Dec8.031004.11336@abode.ttank.com> Date: 8 Dec 91 03:10:04 GMT References: <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Organization: Abode Computer Services Lines: 21 In article <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> atmadc@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: > > Dear all, > I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this, > but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full > news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from > Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien > civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it > is my duty to make the full facts known. > > I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened > and I really don't know what to do. > Please, does anybody know what to do? > > A.COLLARD ATMADC@UK.AC.OX.VAX > > Go PUBLIC WITH HARD FACTS- FAST! Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!oderberg From: oderberg@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Alien Liaison Message-ID: <1991Dec7.111144.3250@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 7 Dec 91 11:11:44 GMT Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 13 I am completely new at this. Never posted before in my life. Not sure of the protocol, not sure of the customs and tacit knowledge of regular users. But I am told that the best way to learn how to use the net is to make mistakes and have people correct you. So I shall do this. What I wish to ask is: Has anyone read Tim Good's latest book Alien Liaison, and if so, what is their opinion of it? I have just finished it, and have some views, but I would first like to know what others think. David. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!oderberg From: oderberg@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hidden Aliens??? Message-ID: <1991Dec7.182835.3255@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 7 Dec 91 18:28:35 GMT References: <91340.114451U27468@uicvm.uic.edu> Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 15 In article <91340.114451U27468@uicvm.uic.edu>, U27468@uicvm.uic.edu (Nancy Bulinski) writes: > Someone told me alittle of a bizzare story of alien bodies > being hidden by government authorities at some military > installation out west YEARS ago... maybe 50 years? What > is this about? Can someone tell me, or give me a reference > book that this supposedly came from? Thanks. > > Nancy (u27468@uicvm.uic.edu) You should read Above Top Secret, the 1987 book on the subject, by Timothy Good, which has now become the standard reference work on the subject. You can then read Alien Liaison (1991) by the same author; I've just finished it, and find it staggering, but -- believeable? David. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!corvette.utdallas.edu!tamsun!zeus.tamu.edu!msw5513 From: msw5513@zeus.tamu.edu (WHINERY, MARC STEVEN) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.config Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Keywords: photon,light,yugo,mass Message-ID: <7DEC199115515112@zeus.tamu.edu> Date: 7 Dec 91 20:51:00 GMT References: <1991Dec5.145920.21545@kingston.ac.uk> <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> Sender: news@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:180 sci.physics:15269 sci.skeptic:18360 alt.alien.visitors:3471 alt.config:5454 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 In article , okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) writes... >fdeck@dumpster.helios.nd.edu (francis deck) writes: >>Yes... it's possible. Read up on the "twin paradox." We travel >>in time whenever we move through space, though the nanoseconds we >>gain or lose don't amount to much. If the speed of light were 55 >>MPH (65 in the country), we'd all be quite accustomed to time >>travel. > > Not quite. > > If the speed of light were 55 MPH, then the Yugo and Geo would be >terrible gas guzzlers. Mopeds wouldn't be much better. > > The speed of light isn't exactly a velocity as we know it; it only >appears that way. It's actually a limit, just like absolute zero >temperature or a frequency of zero cycles per second. The speed of >light is the maximum speed that anything can possibly go. > [meaningfull discussion on the speed of light omitted.] > Light travels at the maximum limit because a photon has no mass. >That's the fastest it can go, so it does. Sounds good, but there is one problem. Photons have mass. I don't have any reference books with me, but light exerts force. Photons have a finite momentum. Since momentum=mass*velocity, and a photon traveling at the speed of light has momentum and velocity, it must have mass. Because nothing with mass can reach the speed of light, but photons have mass and travel the speed of light, the speed of light must be greater than the speed of light. Or in terms that sane people can understand, the "speed of light" barrier is actually slightly greater than the speed of a photon, c. But, keep in mind that these ideas include a few theories that cannot be proven with current technology, and the fact that I have yet to take a class in physics. _______________________________________________________________________________ MSW5513@TAMZEUS Marc Whinery /\/\ MSW5513@TAMVENUS / \ MSW5513@TAMRIGEL \ / MSW5513@TAMSIGMA \/\/ MSW5513@TAMSUMMA MSW5513@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU Yes, having this many MSW5513@VENUS.TAMU.EDU addresses is redundant MSW5513@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU and pointless, but so MSW5513@SIGMA.TAMU.EDU is higher education. MSW5513@SUMMA.TAMU.EDU (now if only I could learn to spell...) Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!sheaffer From: sheaffer@netcom.COM (Robert Sheaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Urantia Book Message-ID: <1991Dec09.052657.9375sheaffer@netcom.COM> Date: 9 Dec 91 05:26:57 GMT References: <1991Dec6.002808.6540@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Lines: 17 Martin Gardner has published several columns about the "Urantia books" in the past few issues of "The Skeptical Inquirer", starting about 3 issues back. Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak, Author of *utterly offensive* books! -- Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I Do Not speak, Author of *utterly offensive* books! Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic Subject: cross-posting Message-ID: Date: 8 Dec 91 19:54:51 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:184 alt.alien.visitors:3473 sci.physics:15273 sci.skeptic:18366 Now that alt.sci.physics.new-theories has been created, it would probably be a good idea to cut down on the cross-postings to sci.physics and sci.skeptic. Otherwise, what's the point in having a separate group? Also, would people replying to the time-travel thread please remove *at least* alt.config? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cunixa.cc.columbia.edu!dmz1 From: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.physics,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec8.172816.30616@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Date: 8 Dec 91 17:28:16 GMT References: <1991Dec5.170623.15346@nynexst.com> <1991Dec5.204349.21016@news.nd.edu> <1991Dec07.180608.61081@cs.cmu.edu> Sender: usenet@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (The Network News) Reply-To: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis) Organization: Columbia University Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.sci.physics.new-theories:195 sci.physics:15278 sci.skeptic:18370 alt.alien.visitors:3474 Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu I'm just another reader of alt.config that would like to stop seeing this (fascinating) thread crossposted to that group. PLease have a look at your newsgroup line before posting. DanZ This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not necessarily represent the views of any particular person. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <1991Dec8.175440.9518@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 8 Dec 91 17:54:40 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 21 Jim Shafer writes: "In the psychic field there are rare reports of bilocation.." For any one interested more in bilocation, try reading some autobiographical accounts of Padre Pio, the Capucine monk who bore the stigmata for many years and could bilocate to people in hospitals, etc. To me, this points to the concept/idea/aspect of diffusing one's being/cells/atoms to such a degree with light (saints are known to have so celestialized their atoms/cells that they are perhaps omnipresent, in a sense, if one thinks/analyzes it). Padre Pio was a devout monk/priest...who bled profusely and was an instrument of bodily healing for many people. I met a man a few months back who met Padre Pio personally and had a biolocation experience regarding him, and a physical healing. Padre Pio is now deceased, but is prayed to by many for assistnace assistance in their spiritual journeying. Kathy Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!uc.msc.edu!noc.MR.NET!gacvx2.gac.edu!gacvx2.gac.edu!news From: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS Message-ID: <1991Dec8.124810.64@gacvx2.gac.edu> Date: 8 Dec 91 18:48:09 GMT References: <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Reply-To: youngdah@nic.gac.edu Lines: 23 Nntp-Posting-Host: hecate.gac.edu In article <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> writes: > > Dear all, > I have undergone much soul-searching and agonising about this, > but I feel I must be true to myself and give everyone the full > news. I am a student working on the GALILEO probe and results from > Venus indicated ONLY THE POSSIBILITY of remnants of an alien > civilisation on Venus. NASA have supressed the news but I feel it > is my duty to make the full facts known. > > I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened > and I really don't know what to do. > Please, does anybody know what to do? > > A.COLLARD ATMADC@UK.AC.OX.VAX > > This belongs on alt.forgery. Seriously... what some people will do for a laugh. Ben Youngdahl Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Time Travel - My First Posting Message-ID: <94180.29420CEE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 7 Dec 91 22:03:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 19 In a message to All <05 Dec 91 12:11> Terenas S D M wrote: TSDM> All I'd like to know is if it possible to travel in time. I heard a story TSDM> about reflection using mirrors and the TSDM> time that light takes to travel from TSDM> a place to another and that seems it TSDM> possible to travel in time but one needs TSDM> MANY mirros, is this true ? Hi Sergio. Are you perhaps thinking of the Aspect Experiment? It doesn't really confirm Time Travel, but it seems to confirm faster-than-light effects between coupled photons. Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: FAA UFO Guidelines Message-ID: <94181.29420CF0@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 7 Dec 91 22:06:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 31 In a message to All <05 Dec 91 18:02> cciolori wrote: cc> From: cciolori@faatcrl.UUCP (cciolori) cc> Date: 5 Dec 91 16:02:38 GMT cc> Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ cc> Message-ID: <2170@faatcrl.UUCP> cc> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors cc> Yeah, OK. I don't know of a cc> single person at the FAA who has anything cc> even remotely to do with UFO cc> investigations. The FAA in a very large cc> organization...maybe they do that stuff in FAA Washington. Hi! Perhaps the FAA in DC is more involved with tracking and record-keeping of UFO related stuff, but I wonder if you could help us in another way. FAA has guidelines for employees to follow in responding to local UFO queries. I understand there's a telephone script that everyone familiarized with -- could you share information about it with us? It's just a couple of sentences, so it's probably not kept by people's telephones. I think it's just something they learn in training. Any help would be appreciated! thanks Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFO's and UFO magazines Message-ID: <94182.29420CF2@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 7 Dec 91 22:10:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 29 In a message to All <05 Dec 91 18:02> Daniel Fischer wrote: DF> From: p515dfi@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Daniel Fischer) DF> Date: 5 Dec 91 11:28:09 GMT DF> Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Radioastronomie, Bonn DF> Message-ID: <2576@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> DF> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors DF> If you can read German, I could help you: There's a brilliant magazine in DF> Germany, run by the CENAP, the Center for the Research into Strange Sky DF> Phenomena, and called CENAP REPORT. It appears every month with sometimes DF> 50 pages full of hot news, media clippings, field research and historical DF> stuff. All 'branches' of the UFO field are discussed, even fringe areas as DF> Crop (crap...) Circles, Abductions and so on. They also go into psychology Vielen dank, Daniel! Koennten Sie Uns avisiren, die Addresse und Subskriptionsumme des CENAP REPORTs? I'm sure some users of this net might be interested in subscribing. Thanks! Clark Matthews -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFO over Montreal Message-ID: <94183.29420CF4@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 02:29:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 35 In a message to All <24 Nov 91 12:07> L. M. P. McPherson wrote: LMPM> From: pisces@cs.mcgill.ca (L. M. P. McPherson) LMPM> Date: 24 Nov 91 04:10:34 GMT LMPM> Organization: McGill University LMPM> Message-ID: <1991Nov24.041034.24064@cs.mcgill.ca> LMPM> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors >>> A similar object was seen in Montreal on the night of November 7, 1990. >>> (The event was reported in the newspaper "La Presse", Nov. 8, 1990, p. A3.) >>> This UFO had a circle of lights (up to 10) and rays of light coming out of >>> it. It moved very slowly across the sky above a large downtown shopping >>> mall/office complex, and was visible for at least three hours. I remember LMPM> There was a photograph in the newspaper. Odd that you should assume there LMPM> were no photos taken. Is there any chance that you could send a clipping (or better yet, a GIF scan) of this photo? From your brief description, it sounds a bit like the Hudson Valley UFO of the 1980s. Please advise if you can obtain a copy. Many thanks! Clark Matthews The Wrong Number BBS P.O. Box 3934 Jersey City, NJ 07303-3934 -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: DOWN 18 Message-ID: <94185.29420CF8@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 05:13:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 26 In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:20> rodger@ac.dal.ca wrote: ro> From: rodger@ac.dal.ca ro> Date: 25 Nov 91 00:15:19 GMT ro> Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada ro> Message-ID: <1991Nov24.201519.2180@ac.dal.ca> ro> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors ro> We're looking for some videos on UFO's. So far we've seen: Hello Roger! Wonderful to hear from someone in good old Halifax! I have never seen one of the landmark UFO films: _UFOs: Past, Present and Future_. It was produced and directed by Robert Emmenegger in the 1970s, based on his book of the same name. I've heard the film is/was quite good, but I've been completely unable to obtain a screening, let alone a videocassette. Good luck in your quest, and please let me know if you locate the Emmenegger film on videocassette! Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: SOMETHING HUGE! Message-ID: <94186.29420CFA@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 05:21:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 29 In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:21> Dusty Garza wrote: DG> From: dusty@abode.ttank.com (Dusty Garza) DG> Date: 25 Nov 91 09:38:34 GMT DG> Organization: Abode Computer Services DG> Message-ID: <1991Nov25.093834.549@abode.ttank.com> DG> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors DG> Dear fellow UFOlogists: DG> I have just heard some GREAT NEWS (hopefully I won't be let down) from DG> the upcoming UFO Conference to be held in Las Vegas next month: DG> SOMETHING VERY BIG WILL BE ANNOUNCED THERE. SOMETHING THAT WILL DG> UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS A UFO COVER-UP ON THE PART OF DG> THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. Dusty, sorry for the late reply to your post -- but maybe it worked out for the best. What was the GREAT NEWS! that came out of the L.V. UFOcon? I haven't heard a peep (I'm still getting caught up on 2 weeks of ParaNet/FidoNet/UFINET and now Internet mail). Did it fulfill expectations? Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFOs in Belgium Message-ID: <94187.29420CFB@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 05:24:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 22 In a message to All <25 Nov 91 17:59> David Harwood wrote: DH> From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood) DH> Date: 25 Nov 91 17:10:40 GMT DH> Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 DH> Message-ID: <43637@mimsy.umd.edu> DH> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors DH> By the way, did anyone see the UFO-proponent on Larry King who claimed DH> that the Soviets have deep-space satellite photos of a huge cylindrical DH> UFO? More fun ;-) Hello David. The UFO proponent was Don Ecker of UFO magazine, and I believe he showed the actual final image from the Phobos probe before the probe disappeared. Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Followup to CFD: alt.physics. What is the best name? Message-ID: <94211.2942D54F@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 08:44:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 24 In a message to All <26 Nov 91 13:05> Harold Pritchett wrote: HP> From: harold@groucho.dev.uga.edu (Harold Pritchett) HP> Date: 26 Nov 91 13:58:12 GMT HP> Organization: University of Georgia, Athens HP> Message-ID: <1991Nov26.135812.21144@athena.cs.uga.edu> HP> Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic >>>A proposed name is: alt.physics (what else?) HP> How about: HP> alt.weird.science Hehehehehehehe!! Seconded! Definitely, seconded! Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: CFD: alt.physics Message-ID: <94184.29420CF6@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 04:32:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 35 In a message to All <25 Nov 91 12:20> David Wright wrote: DW> From: dww@bnr.co.uk (David Wright) DW> Date: 24 Nov 91 23:30:13 GMT DW> Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB DW> Message-ID: <5166@stl.co.uk> DW> Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,sci.physics,sci.skeptic DW> In the referenced article noring@netcom.COM (Jon Noring) writes: DW> #I'd like feedback on the possible DW> creation of an alt.* newsgroup to discuss DW> #alternative physics theories that do not fit mainstream views. It will DW> #be a forum where both the proponents and DW> the skeptics can interact (hopefully DW> #in a civilized manner :^) ) to discuss these theories. DW> In the discussion of this idea, nobody in alt.config seems to have DW> remembered that there IS a group for such discussions, even though Jon DW> included it in his Newsgroups list - DW> sci.skeptic. What's wrong with using Hello David. I think the tag sci.skeptic is a little off-putting for many of us who have the daily challenge of responding to professional or pathological skeptics/cynics/debunkers. The quality of the "skeptical" discussions found in most "skeptical" forums seems to be extremely low. Too many discussions there seem to come straight out of Monty Python's Arguement Clinic: bitterly adversarial, take-no-prisoners gangbangs where arguements are often badly reasoned, sometimes completely false, and often comprised of automatic gainsaying of anything unexplained or unconventional. It seems to me to be the exact converse of the "moonbeam" discussions of committed UFO cultists, and therefore completely without value. Perhaps we could compromise on alt.cavilling.nits or alt.arguement.clinic? Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!csn!scicom!paranet!f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Something Huge! Message-ID: <94212.2942D551@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 8 Dec 91 08:51:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:107/816 - The Wrong Num, Jersey City NJ Lines: 40 In a message to All <27 Nov 91 17:56> Dale Wedge wrote: DW> From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) DW> Date: 27 Nov 91 20:55:24 GMT DW> Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) DW> Message-ID: <1991Nov27.205524.28791@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> DW> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors DW> It's time to give grants to people who are critical thinkers and those who DW> have a regard for Occam's Razor instead of going around in circles and DW> perpetuating such mish mash. Hi Dale. I agree, wholeheartedly, 110%. I'm annoyed that what little grant money that exists for UFO research consistently circulates around a small circle of self-promoters who do not publish, or who treat their work as proprietary. Personally, I would not financially support UFO study groups that award such sweetheart grants. DW> Again Mike, tangible - read my lips - T A N G I B L E P R O O F is what DW> is required. Something that I can hold in my hand that Phil Klass can't DW> explain. Well, I think that Klass's job is twofold: 1. Publically "explaining" anything and everything offered as proof of UFO existence regardless of the facts, and 2. Evaluating, discrediting, and informing his bosses about anyone who may possess such proof (or apparently genuine US gov't UFO research, records, COMINT, or just interesting ideas) So I'm prepared to settle for a "bird" in the hand and a sock in Phil's mouth (and a tap on my phone). Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun!tamuts!n138ct From: n138ct@tamuts.tamu.edu (Brent) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Please read: LIFE ON VENUS Message-ID: <6702@tamsun.tamu.edu> Date: 8 Dec 91 21:56:11 GMT References: <1991Dec6.160827.3235@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Sender: usenet@tamsun.tamu.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Texas A&M Univ., Inc. Lines: 31 atmadc@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: | Dear all, | [There is a POSSIBILITY of life on Venus.] | I have more details but I cannot give them out. I am so frightened | and I really don't know what to do. | Please, does anybody know what to do? Well the thing NOT to do is panic. A panic stricken society would be bad: riots, takeovers, suicides. Even if this turns out to be true, we MUST NOT PANIC! PEOPLE IN PANIC DO NOT THINK RATIONALLY! If this is true and an alien approches you, seek help immediately and notify the proper authorities. This assumes that they haven't shot you with THEIR LASER BEAMS YET! Remember: DO NOT PANIC. A PANIC- STRICKEN PERSON IS A GOOD TARGET OF DOGS AND ALIENS! IN PREPARATION FOR THE VENUSIAN TAKEOVER, STOCK UP ON BOTTLED WATER, CANNED FOODS, CANDLES, AND TRANSISTOR RADIOS. BUY BOMB SHELTERS AND ANTI-RADIATION SUNGLASSES. ORGANIZE LOCAL MILITIA TO COMBAT THE ALIENS! SHUT DOWN GOVERNMENT; THAT'S THE LAST THING WE NEED WORKING AT A TIME LIKE THIS! WHEN THE ALIENS LAND, THEY STOP OUR ELECTRICAL POWERPLANTS FOR THEIR OWN USE! OBTAIN COPIES OF 'SOLDIER OF FORTUNE' FOR SURVIVAL NEEDS: WEAPONS, TECHNIQUES, SUPPLIES. Oh, and let me know how it goes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brent P. Burton, N5VMG Computer Sci/Physics brentb@cs.tamu.edu Texas A&M University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------